Аутор Тема: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece  (Прочитано 17592 пута)

Ван мреже Alexandra_K

  • Помоћник
  • ****
  • Поруке: 140
Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« послато: Јул 04, 2018, 11:41:40 поподне »
Hello again everyone,

Just out of personal interest and curiosity I am collecting information regarding the historical presence of the Slavs in our area of Epirus (village: Ekklisohori Ioanninon, previous name Tserkovista/Tsarkovista, area of Kourenta).

Here I copy some related information that I already tried to sum up in the previous thread I started here:

The other side of my family (maternal) come from the village Tserkovista (now Ekklisohori) in the area of Ioannina, Epirus. The village was a Vajunite settlement of the Middle Ages (earliest possible,  9th century). It had always belonged to a regional subdivision called Kourenta. Kurent(a) had been the surname of the Slavic Zupan owning or settling at the area. Most of the villages of Kourenta used to have names of Slavic origin like ours. I am writing all this to you, because one of these villages was called Vlachokatouno (Vlahokatuno). It was inhabited by Vlachs until the 17th century if I remember right. My very family must depict theoretically a continuation of this legacy like most of the locals. Of course, especially in my family we also have known Vlach and Arvanite roots.  According to historical sources the Slavic settlers of the area never left but settled for good, having sent away or annihilated most of the local male  population but often marrying to local women who had mostly survived the invasions. So through the centuries they gradually became assimilated culturally, genetically and linguistically.
There might still be some slight evidence of the Slavic legacy in the local dialect and pronounciation, I would think. Also some characteristic elements like the fact that the local surnames (esp. the female ones) would still sound very Slavic . As opposed to the official surnames the locals would refer to each other as follows: Kostayannova, Yannantonova etc. (These are actually the local unofficial surnames of my grandmother and great-grandmother). We also have the surname Detsikas pronounced Dečkas which made me think of dečko, now that I am trying to learn Serbian.
Anyways, I just mentioned this because the katun of  Vlahovic made me think of Vlahokatuno in our area. Nothing to do with my fathers family though 😉


Ok, so I was very curious to find out if the Vajunites could be linked to some modern-day Slavic population. I have only managed to find out that they were a Southern Slavic tribe. At some point, I was misled through the erroneous automatic translation (google) ;-) to think that they might have been actual Slovenes - however this was the mistaken translation in English of the word for "Slavs" in Serbian.
However, I have found one clue that brings me back to Slovenia: their mythical figure Kurent. Kurenta (the group of villages our village has always belonged to) was called like that because of the name of the Slavic Zupan who had settled there or owned the area. There is also a nearby village with the name Kourenta.
Based on the above, I also searched for a possible surname Kurent/ Kurenta and I only found quite a few cases in Slovenia and some in Croatia (for Kurent) and only a few in Romania (for Kurenta). I think though that the actual name of the guy must have been without the "a" at the end. The ending -a in Greek can signify the place(s) owned by the specific person (it is plural of neurtal as in sel-a).
Speaking of sela, the old center of our village was named Selio, also of slavic origin.
As for the original name of our village I copy my own notes from another post:
Our place of origin is a village near Ioannina, Greece, called Ekklisohori. It was renamed in 1928 and its original name had been Tserkovista (or Tsarkovista). Slavic for church village, more or less (see cerkov+ista-->coming from -ica). It was a Slavic settlement of the Middle Ages. It can be placed the earliest around the 9th century after the Slavs were christianized (see cerkov). The Slavic settlers have allegedly married mostly to local women and through the centuries they were assimilated both culturally and genetically, however leaving a distinct signature in place names, surnames and everyday vocabulary (even in our local accent I would think). The village was later on occupied also by Bulgarians, Serbs, and of course by the Turks. In the village and the broader area, the Greeks (and Slavs) have long coexisted with Vlachs and Arvanites as well.

I have been told by someone that the Serbs did not settle in big numbers, although they had conquered the area for some time - rather, a small number of noble Serbs settled and were given lands as rulers. According to the same person, the Bulgarians did settle more massaly though. I would have to look this up once.

Ван мреже Alexandra_K

  • Помоћник
  • ****
  • Поруке: 140
Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #1 послато: Јул 04, 2018, 11:42:10 поподне »
A list of the Slavic toponyms of the villages of Kourenta that I have put together is the following:

So this is a list of the Slavic names of villages belonging to the "Kourenta" group of villages which must have been settlements of the Vajunites:

Veltsista: "white place" (Gortzis)/ from the Slavic "Belciste" (Vasmer), area or fields belonging to Velts (Velts= fountain of water to the west of the village, river Veltsistino) (Bettis)/ of Slavic origin (Velts+ista)/ Slavic toponym (Oikonomou)

Gribovo and Gribianι: a) Vlach word...or b) Slavic word meaning place where mushrooms are abundant

Gourianista: (Vasmer) Gorjaniste, Gorjane= inhabitant of the mountain, (Oikonomou) Slavic "Gorjan"(Gor= arson < goreti= to burn+ ending -ist

Granitsopoula: Slavic, granica= sort of oak well-known in the area

Doliana: doljane= slavic word for inhabitant of the valley

Dragomι: Dragomir?

Zagoriani: (Vasmar) Slavic word zagorjane (the one who lives behind the forests-?), the name was given most probably by the Slavs who had settled at the back and western side of Ano Kalamas river).

Zelista: zeleno?

Zitsa: Slavic, soul or border

Karitsa: (Oikonomou), slavic "koryto" (basin)/ Slavic garb < v. goreti (to burn)/ (Bettis) Slavic, kara = punishment or sentence

Kosoliani: of Slavic origin- no further explanation

Kourenta: of Slavic origin - no further explanation (Kurent???)

Mosiari: ? sounds a bit Slavic too but could not find info

Brianista: ? sounds Slavic to me :-) but again could not find info

Pogdoriani: Slavic word meaning a place under the mountains

Raiko/Rajko: from the surname Raikos, Greek version of the Slavic Rajko. Name of the first settler or owner of the area/ Slavic noun "Raj"= paradise

Rahovitsa/ Riahovo (see Arahovistsa): place with walnuts

Sioutista: was founded by Souliotes (Arvanites) that fled to the area as Sioutista from the Slavic name of the mountain "Kasidiaris" which refers to a goat without horns

Tserkovista/ Tsarkovista: Slavic "Cerkov"+ ista, area with churches



Ван мреже Alexandra_K

  • Помоћник
  • ****
  • Поруке: 140
Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #2 послато: Јул 04, 2018, 11:43:27 поподне »
Sorry for the repetition of some information but I am trying to sum up here some of my past posts from another forum. Below another post of mine citing information about the village's name and the Slavic settlement from a book about our village (Ekkisohori- Tsarkovista Ioanninon by P.D.Tziovas):

Most of the villages' names were changed or hellenized in the 20th century. Our village's name was changed in 1928 from Tsarkovista to Ekklisohori (Greek literal translation). Others changed even as late as the 1950's or even 60's, if I remember right.

Now about the name of our village, more specifically, I am quoting (and translating) P.D. Tziovas from his book: Ekklisohori, Tsarkovista Ioanninon:

"The name Tsarkovista or Tserkovista is produced by the Slavic Curkua (=church) and together with the known toponymic ending -ica, it means position of a church, or place dedicated to a church or even a village near a church and this, beacause the ending -ista is plural (Bettis). Labridis supports that the name is "signifying a place with the meaning, small royal property, from the replacement of consonants in Tsarskovica", and in another instance he claims that the name comes from "cerkov (=church) and that it denotes a dedication to the maintainance of a church". Finally, Vasmer regards as most probable that the name is produced by the Bulgarian, tsirky, tserkov, tserko-viste that means church".

"According to Pr. Zakinthinos the epirot toponyms Tsarkovista, Tserkovista, Tserkouviana etc. are etymologically connected to the Old Slavic word meaning church and as such could not be older than the second half of the 9th century, when the apostolic action was observed for the christianization of the Slavs. The size of the villages (oikismoi) where the Slavs settled depended on the number and the order of the inhabitants and ranged from 5,000 to 30,000 square meters. Each village (oikismos) had on average 8-10 houses with 40-50 appr. inhabitants, while the big villages could reach 20 houses with approx. 100 inhabitants."

"Based on this, the largest group of Slavic invaders must have settled to the west of today's village in the position "Selio" which means village, where there was according to the inhabitants' tradition, the most ancient church of the area, dedicated to Saint Taxiarches. Of course, the Slavic invaders settled all over the village, by displacing or annihilating the weaker local residents, from whom only the women survived, who through intermarriage secured many racial qualities of the natives, with first and foremost the passing down of the Greek language to new generations".


In this other forum, some people suggested that the Vajunites must be mostly connected to the Eastern Balkans (eg Bulgaria, North Macedonia...) judging from the linguistics of the toponyms. He also gave me the example of a word we use, ververica, saying that it is similar to the Macedonian language.

Well, that's it for now. Any ideas or opinions are more than welcome!

Hvala! Laku noć!

Ван мреже Alexandra_K

  • Помоћник
  • ****
  • Поруке: 140
Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #3 послато: Јул 04, 2018, 11:44:34 поподне »
Some other info I have found:

Hello again! This source mentions the Slovenes, Serbs, Croats and slavified Bulgarians as the Slavic tribes who invaded and settled in Greece. Of course, it does not specify the origin of the Vajunites in particular but it names in general all of the above South Slavs (as opposed to a supposedly initial all-encompassing Slavic group) as the ones who came to (what is now) Greece:

Σύμφωνα μ’ αυτή, οι Σλάβοι που εγκαταστάθηκαν στις ελληνικές περιοχές υπάγονται στη νότια ομάδα που περιλαμβάνει τους Σλοβένους, τους Κροάτες, τους Σέρβους και τους εκσλαβισθέντες γλωσσικά Βουλγάρους. Σε αντίθεση με την παλιότερη θεωρία του Kopitar, που δεχόταν ότι οι πρώιμοι Σλάβοι που κατέβηκαν προς τον Δούναβη αποτελούσαν αρχικά ενιαία φυλετικά ομάδα που διασπάστηκε εκ των υστέρων, η νεότερη φιλολογική σχολή υποστηρίζει ότι τα σλαβικά αυτά φύλα έφεραν εξ αρχής τα στοιχεία της διαφοροποίησης. Έτσι, πολύ νωρίς, στην οικογένεια των Νοτίων Σλάβων διαμορφώθηκαν τρεις κλάδοι που τους χαρακτήριζε γλωσσική ιδιορρυθμία: οι Σλοβένοι, οι ΣερβοΚροάτες και οι Σλάβοι του Αίμου, που είναι γνωστοί με το άσχετο προς τη Σλαβική οικογένεια όνομα των Βουλγάρων.

The historical overview of Ancestry DNA's "Greece and the Balkans" category agrees with the above source:

Slavs and the Byzantine Empire
As Roman rule weakened, newcomers made their way into the Balkan Peninsula from the east. Some, like the Goths and Huns, came as raiding parties. But starting in the 6th century, the Slavs came to stay. They included Serbs, Slovenes, and Croats. They were followed by the Bulgars—a Turkic people from Central Asia—who founded two empires in the Balkans. As the newcomers moved in, many locals fled coastal lands for the mountains, where they became herders instead of farmers. Byzantine Greeks lived throughout Asia Minor, the Greek Islands, and parts of the southern Balkans. They spoke medieval Greek, practiced Christianity, and identified as Romans. Olive groves and vineyards were common, and bread, wine, and olives were staple foods.

Maybe it does not answer my initial question, but it puts the Slovenes, Serbs and Croats also in the picture. Well, probably a more specific answer is not so easy to reach.

Ван мреже Alexandra_K

  • Помоћник
  • ****
  • Поруке: 140
Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #4 послато: Јул 04, 2018, 11:51:02 поподне »
Here are also just a few local words which could be of Slavic origin according to some uncle of mine that I happened to ask:

An unkle of mine just told me a few other words we are using and he considers to be Slavic.
"Γενικά υπάρχουν λίγα μικροτοπωνύμια και πολλές ονοματοδωσίες παλαιών αγροτικών εργαλείων, 'όπως σβάρνα, κόσα,κούρβα. Πολύ συνηθηζόταν η λέξη ζακόνι = συνήθεια αλλά και άγραφος νόμος!..."
He writes that there are a few microtoponyms as well as a lot of names of agricultural tools such as svarna, kosa, curva...he also mentions the word zakoni= habit but also unwritten law. I don't know if they are indeed of Slavic origin? I will try to gather other words too that older people might be using.


I also know we use glava, ververitsa and goustera.

Ван мреже Дробњак

  • Истраживач
  • *******
  • Поруке: 1208
  • I1 P109
Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #5 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 12:00:32 пре подне »
Here are also just a few local words which could be of Slavic origin according to some uncle of mine that I happened to ask:

An unkle of mine just told me a few other words we are using and he considers to be Slavic.
"Γενικά υπάρχουν λίγα μικροτοπωνύμια και πολλές ονοματοδωσίες παλαιών αγροτικών εργαλείων, 'όπως σβάρνα, κόσα,κούρβα. Πολύ συνηθηζόταν η λέξη ζακόνι = συνήθεια αλλά και άγραφος νόμος!..."
He writes that there are a few microtoponyms as well as a lot of names of agricultural tools such as svarna, kosa, curva...he also mentions the word zakoni= habit but also unwritten law. I don't know if they are indeed of Slavic origin? I will try to gather other words too that older people might be using.


I also know we use glava, ververitsa and goustera.
zakon/i - laws in Serbian
glava -head in Serbian
ververitsa (veverica) - Squirrel in Serbian
goustera (gušter in Serbian) - lizard in Serbian
kosa - hair or scythe (agricultural tool) in Serbian
Искушење баца људе с трона,
роба диже изнад фараона.

Ван мреже Karadag

  • Почетник
  • **
  • Поруке: 50
Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #6 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 12:18:59 пре подне »
Zelista: zeleno?

I think this is actually closer to Selište, which means place of dwelling (selo + -ište)

Rahovitsa/ Riahovo (see Arahovistsa): place with walnuts
Orahovo / Orahovica would be Serbo-Croatian, if this helps

Tserkovista/ Tsarkovista: Slavic "Cerkov"+ ista, area with churches
Crkvište in Serbo-Croatian, but common Slavic could give Cerkovišta

Tserkovista/ Tsarkovista: Slavic "Cerkov"+ ista, area with churches

Zitsa: Slavic, soul or border
This toponym could have something to do with the Žiča monastery in Serbia (I assume it is named after the village it is situated in near Kraljevo).

----

κούρβα (kourva) - without any meaning, can't really tell what this means. Kurva in Serbo-Croatian is a vulgar term, but my guess is kourva means cow, which is krava in Serbo-Croatian. The term krava comes from proto-Slavic *korva, which could have morphed into kourva in Ioannina dialects.

----
On a side note, Slavic speakers around Thessalonica are known to speak dialects closer to Macedonian and Bulgarian, so it would not surprise me that the area around Ioannina would be no different. Serbian lords did control parts of Ioannina region for long periods of time in the 14th and 15th centuries (it was part of Stefan Dušan's empire in the late 14th century!), so it could very well be possible that Serbs migrated to the region during this period. Which dialects they spoke is anyone's guess, however.
« Последња измена: Јул 05, 2018, 12:27:11 пре подне Karadag »

Ван мреже Alexandra_K

  • Помоћник
  • ****
  • Поруке: 140
Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #7 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 12:34:02 пре подне »
Thank you both for the very important additions and corrections!!

True, one source of all these lingustic elements can be the Vajunites, but other additional and more recent sources can be the Bulgarian and Serb conquerors. Is it accurate that only Serbian lords settled in the area in very small numbers?

Also the local unofficial surnames (like my grandmother's, Yannantonova for example) can come from any Slavic language potentially, right?
 
Thank you!

Ван мреже Alexandra_K

  • Помоћник
  • ****
  • Поруке: 140
Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #8 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 12:38:40 пре подне »
Someone had suggested that kourva must come from the (latin-based) Vlach language, as in curva = curve, an object forming a curve or something.

На мрежи НиколаВук

  • Уредник
  • Бели орао
  • *****
  • Поруке: 8478
  • I2-PH908>Y250780>A32852, род Никшића
Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #9 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 02:21:39 пре подне »
Sioutista: was founded by Souliotes (Arvanites) that fled to the area as Sioutista from the Slavic name of the mountain "Kasidiaris" which refers to a goat without horns

This is a Slavic toponym, but with Albanian root. Originally it was probably Шутиште (Greek language speakers cannot pronounce Ш (sh), hence "Sioutista"), and the word "шут" is an old Slavic loanword from Albanian (there are very few of those, mostly the borrowings were in the opposite direction, from Old Slavic to Albanian), but it is very rarely used today in Serbian; original Albanian word is "shyt" (-y- in shyt is pronounced like German ü) with the meaning "without horns", and this refers mainly to domestic animals (goats, sheep, cows, etc.).

"Based on this, the largest group of Slavic invaders must have settled to the west of today's village in the position "Selio" which means village, where there was according to the inhabitants' tradition, the most ancient church of the area, dedicated to Saint Taxiarches. Of course, the Slavic invaders settled all over the village, by displacing or annihilating the weaker local residents, from whom only the women survived, who through intermarriage secured many racial qualities of the natives, with first and foremost the passing down of the Greek language to new generations".[/i]

This citation is a bit of an oversimplification, the assimilation processes between Slavs and local population were a bit more complex than a simple "male barbarians come, kill all the local men, take their women and then their women pass the Greek language to the children they've got with the barbarians".  :) Slavic tribes that settled in the Balkans during the Early Medieval period consisted of zadrugas (задруга), ie. extended families (men, women and children) linked by marriage and common descent in paternal line, so they essentialy transplanted their pre-Balkan social system to their new homeland; in the first two or three centuries (6th/7th to 9th century AD) most of the Balkan Slavs had very little contact with the local non-Slavic population which occupied higher mountainous areas or were near the sea shore, in urban settlements; Slavs occupied plains and valleys (zupas, жупа) and lived in small villages. Only from the 9th century did Slavs and non-Slavs started to mingle and merge more frequently. The Slavic dialect from Epirus probably survived to very late times, it was probably spoken even in the Ottoman period, before the population that spoke it was thoroughly hellenised; it likely was similar to the barely surviving Slavic dialects in the vicinity of Korca in Albania and on the Albanian side of Lake Prespa and Lake Ohrid.
Чињеницама против самоувереног незнања.

Ван мреже Alexandra_K

  • Помоћник
  • ****
  • Поруке: 140
Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #10 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 07:21:42 пре подне »
Thank you very much, НиколаВук!

These are really important additions to what I have already read. It seemed like a little strange to me that the whole male population would be annihilated but the women would survive and marry to the Slavs. Hehe....:-) What you say about the zadrugas is very interesting!

Our village is not mountainous, it is approximately 300 m. from sea level with a lot of small agricultural plots and grazing areas around. It is built in a way at the side of the Kalamas river. Out of curiosity I will try to understand if other villages with Slavic names from our area are also mostly in plains and valleys. It is very probable.

Interesting about Sioutista. Actually people from the broader area can pronounce "Sh"  - and a lot ;-) That's why I sometimes think that it can be a leftover from an old Slavic identity. We just have to write it as Si- because there is no letter in Greek to symbolize this sound. For example, my grandmother's official :-) surname is Sioula (matronymic meaning family of a lady called Soula) but we pronounce it as "Shula".

It is very interesting that the Slavic dialect would have survived that long, makes sense...What do you think about our "unofficial" female surnames? Could be a reminiscent of the Slavic past?

I didn't know about these barely surviving dialects, thank you! Then, yes, they must be related, most probably. Are these dialects more connected to Macedonian/Bulgarian too?

Pozdrav!
« Последња измена: Јул 05, 2018, 07:24:31 пре подне Alexandra_K »

Ван мреже Alexandra_K

  • Помоћник
  • ****
  • Поруке: 140
Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #11 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 11:27:47 пре подне »
Hello again!

I talked with my mother on the phone and she gave me a few other words she could think of (we don't know their etymology):

Zalonome: verb. to put a lot of weights on your shoulders
related noun: zaliki (the things you carry)

Sarmanitsa: baby crib (I looked it up now and it seems to be a Vlach word)

Gabratsa: very big cooking pot

Blana: probably some tool, but also used metaphorically to describe somebody who lacks energy, eg. is dragging his feet while walking

Ван мреже Ojler

  • Члан Управног одбора
  • Бели орао
  • *
  • Поруке: 5267
  • Y-DNK: I2-Y3120 Z17855>PH3414 Мириловићи
Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #12 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 11:42:26 пре подне »
...
Blana: probably some tool, but also used metaphorically to describe somebody who lacks energy, eg. is dragging his feet while walking

This can be Blanja, a hand wood planer tool.
Kамене рабъ и госодинъ

На мрежи НиколаВук

  • Уредник
  • Бели орао
  • *****
  • Поруке: 8478
  • I2-PH908>Y250780>A32852, род Никшића
Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #13 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 12:07:19 поподне »
Thank you very much, НиколаВук!

These are really important additions to what I have already read. It seemed like a little strange to me that the whole male population would be annihilated but the women would survive and marry to the Slavs. Hehe....:-) What you say about the zadrugas is very interesting!

Our village is not mountainous, it is approximately 300 m. from sea level with a lot of small agricultural plots and grazing areas around. It is built in a way at the side of the Kalamas river. Out of curiosity I will try to understand if other villages with Slavic names from our area are also mostly in plains and valleys. It is very probable.

Interesting about Sioutista. Actually people from the broader area can pronounce "Sh"  - and a lot ;-) That's why I sometimes think that it can be a leftover from an old Slavic identity. We just have to write it as Si- because there is no letter in Greek to symbolize this sound. For example, my grandmother's official :-) surname is Sioula (matronymic meaning family of a lady called Soula) but we pronounce it as "Shula".

It is very interesting that the Slavic dialect would have survived that long, makes sense...What do you think about our "unofficial" female surnames? Could be a reminiscent of the Slavic past?

I didn't know about these barely surviving dialects, thank you! Then, yes, they must be related, most probably. Are these dialects more connected to Macedonian/Bulgarian too?

Pozdrav!

You're welcome.  ;) I didn't know that in your local Greek dialect you have an "sh" sound, and that fact speaks more strongly in favor of late retention of local Slavic dialect, maybe even up until 18/19th century, as well as the local family names you mentioned and a good number of words. It is nearly impossible that the local population would keep so much of their Slavic linguistic heritage to the present day but speak only Greek since the Middle Ages. Slavic Epirote dialect most probably belonged to the linguistic group of Eastern South Slavic languages, such as Bulgarian, Slavic Macedonian and a number of dialects still spoken in today's Greece and Albania. Slovene and Serbo-Croatian belong to the Western South Slavic languages. Our member Pavo recently uploaded some very interesting e-books about Slavic dialects in Albania (the books are in German); the most related to the Slavic Epirote dialect are probably the ones from Boboshtica and Vernik near Korca (which is in southern Albania or Northern Epirus, as you Greeks like to call it ;) ), and then the ones from Prespa area. You can see their location on this map:



Pavo also gave download links for these books on this topic, and you can also download audio files where local Slavs speak in their dialect, so you can actually hear how that dialect sounds:

https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=180.960

Prespa - Vërnik - Boboshtica : http://www.mediafire.com/file/2p7915vbaa0nhdd/Prespa.pdf
Audio : http://www.mediafire.com/file/0ev31pum8smkgqa/Audio.rar
« Последња измена: Јул 05, 2018, 12:08:58 поподне НиколаВук »
Чињеницама против самоувереног незнања.

Ван мреже Alexandra_K

  • Помоћник
  • ****
  • Поруке: 140
Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #14 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 01:47:57 поподне »
Oljer, thank you. Yes, that must be it. My mother mentioned that the tool was wooden and that they were probably dragging it on the soil or something. She has the idea that they might have been attaching it to a horse, but she was not sure. And she said that if someone drags himself around like that with no energy they were calling him blana.

НиколаВук, this is all very interesting, thank you very much. Yes, the pronounciation is very characteristic: we have the "sh" sound a lot and then we cut off many of the vowels of the words (they do so also in some other areas of continental Greece mainly).

I will study the map and the links you gave me now!

I also send a message to a great Greek researcher and scholar, Dimitris Lithoksou, asking him about the period in time when it is maybe recorded that they were speaking already Greek in Tserkovista. He might have the answer, because there used to be such data about the villages kept mainly by the Turks. I suspect that it must have been already before the 19th century that they had already stopped speaking in Slavic dialect. But you are right that the lingustic assimilation could not have been so immediate. The people probably retained their language for centuries before it gradually faded away. I hope Mr Lithokskou will be able to enlighten us!

Pozdrav!
« Последња измена: Јул 05, 2018, 01:51:09 поподне Alexandra_K »

Ван мреже Ojler

  • Члан Управног одбора
  • Бели орао
  • *
  • Поруке: 5267
  • Y-DNK: I2-Y3120 Z17855>PH3414 Мириловићи
Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #15 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 02:06:28 поподне »
Oljer, thank you. Yes, that must be it. My mother mentioned that the tool was wooden and that they were probably dragging it on the soil or something. She has the idea that they might have been attaching it to a horse, but she was not sure. And she said that if someone drags himself around like that with no energy they were calling him blana.

No, no horses  :). Blanja is a carpenters tool for wood processing. Like this one:
Kамене рабъ и госодинъ

Ван мреже Alexandra_K

  • Помоћник
  • ****
  • Поруке: 140
Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #16 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 02:16:41 поподне »
Thank you Ojler! Maybe it is indeed this for us too and my mom doesn't know ;-) She grew up in Athens :-P However she did say it was a wooden tool and that its "dragging" action can be seen metaphorically in non-energetic people. Haha...

Ван мреже Alexandra_K

  • Помоћник
  • ****
  • Поруке: 140
Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #17 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 05:42:55 поподне »
I managed to find an older answer of Mr Lithoksou, in which he explains that in the middle of the 19th century they were speaking Greek in the village of Tserkovista. According to him the old Slavic population became assimilated and kind of died out gradually because of diseases. I am probably oversimplifying what he said by translating it here, I am afraid.
Another author, Kyritsis, says on the other hand (might be a little too extreme?) that the ancient Greek population of the area had been almost annihilated by Romans and diseases :-) and that the Slavs took over the area later almost completely replacing the older population. So that when the Albanians came during the 14-15th centuries they ust found the hellenized Slavs in the area. A few Greek scholars seem to agree with each other though, that when the Albanians came the Slavs were already speaking Greek but were retaining all of their Slavic toponyms. The toponyms were maintained until the 20th century!

На мрежи НиколаВук

  • Уредник
  • Бели орао
  • *****
  • Поруке: 8478
  • I2-PH908>Y250780>A32852, род Никшића
Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #18 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 05:51:53 поподне »
I managed to find an older answer of Mr Lithoksou, in which he explains that in the middle of the 19th century they were speaking Greek in the village of Tserkovista. According to him the old Slavic population became assimilated and kind of died out gradually because of diseases. I am probably oversimplifying what he said by translating it here, I am afraid.
Another author, Kyritsis, says on the other hand (might be a little too extreme?) that the ancient Greek population of the area had been almost annihilated by Romans and diseases :-) and that the Slavs took over the area later almost completely replacing the older population. So that when the Albanians came during the 14-15th centuries they ust found the hellenized Slavs in the area. A few Greek scholars seem to agree with each other though, that when the Albanians came the Slavs were already speaking Greek but were retaining all of their Slavic toponyms. The toponyms were maintained until the 20th century!

I think that the Greek scholars are pushing the date of helenization of Slavic population in Epirus way back in the past. In my opinion, it is done for political and not scientific reasons. The date of their assimilation must have been in more recent times (Ottoman period, 15th to 19th century), the words and place-names you mentioned and their forms (which all sound very "recent" and that would not be a case if they stopped speaking Slavic even before 14-15th century) are very clear on that.
Чињеницама против самоувереног незнања.

Ван мреже Alexandra_K

  • Помоћник
  • ****
  • Поруке: 140
Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #19 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 08:11:34 поподне »
This could be possible, yes. I just trust Mr Lithoksou's judgement a lot because he is a really independent thinker and passionate about the truth, also very anti-narionalistic in all senses. You can Google him, he is really interesting. Maybe there is more to it, than what he thinks about the specific region in question (nobody knows the whole truth)  but he has a very interesting and in a way radical theory about Greece. He believes (based on history and linguistics) that the ancient Greeks were almost totally eradicated by the Romans but that their slaves (who were much more numerous than them and did not fight in wars) survived in great numbers and formed the basis of Romiosini. Namely the inhabitants of the Greek territory speaking Romeika as opposed to hellinika who then mixed considerably with Slavs, Vlachs and Arvanites (as well as other populations I would add). These slaves belonged mostly to the prehellenic populations that the Greek conquerors found in the territory of today's Greece (Pelasgi, Kares, Leleges...). He bases his theory on very concrete linguistic and historical data. In fact, even genetically speaking, the Neolithic element is still very strong in Greece - together with all the elements showing a strong admixture with Albanians, Vlachs and Slavs (and in some other areas, Italians, Western-Asians, even Arabs). I tend to trust a lot in his writings because he bases everything he says on years of meticulous research. He is not so welcome by academic scholars in Greece, considered a heretic. He's my guy ;-), really appreciate him.