Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece

[Alexandra_K]

Still the toponyms, the words in the everyday vocabulary, the pronounciation and our funny local surnames versions still make me wonder...It could really have been like you say to some degree...
Lithoksou says that all these communities were living next to each other in villages or even just bunches of houses, without formal education for centuries, one language and culture influencing the other. According to him there was no such thing as hellenisation., turkification or slavicisation...just neighboring communities borrowing from each other words that would enter the context of the marketplace, and of commercial exchanges.

[НиколаВук]

There is a strong Slavic element in Epirus, population genomics are confirming that now. In southern Albania and in Greek Epirus there is a sizable percentage of haplotypes that are considered to have come to the Balkans via the Slavic settlement in Early Middle Ages (namely R1a-M458, R1a-Z280 and I2a-YP196), and that is not an accident considering all the things that we've written about on this topic.  Slavs didn't just settle in Epirus, Aegean Macedonia and Thessaly, they penetrated as far as Peloponnese, in fact one of the best researched Early Slavic necropolises on the Balkans is the one in Olympia. German-Hungarian archaeological team excavated that necropolis, and published their findings in this book:

https://www.scribd.com/document/68008092/Vida-T-und-Volling-Th-Das-slawische-Brandgraberfeld-von-Olympia

[Alexandra_K]

Yes, I know and I agree totally....I just try to grasp how the Slavs became gradually assimilated....and the time when this assimilation was completed, let's say.
So really in Epirus there is a strong presence of Slavic haplogroups? Because I was maybe misled into thinking that they were limited in Epirus and more strongly present in Greek Macedonia and Thrace.

[Alexandra_K]

https://goo.gl/images/vLPJ7D

Is this accurate?

And this?
Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin
Northern Greeks (Thrace & Macedonia) (296 samples)
I : 21.6
R1a : 18.2
R1b : 13.2
E1b : 20.6
G2 : 4.7
J2 : 14.9
J1 : 3.4
LT : 2.7
* : 0.7

Central Greeks (Epirus & Thessaly) (127 samples)
I : 12.6
R1a : 11.8
R1b : 10.2
E1b : 31.5
G2 : 6.3
J2 : 18.1
J1 : 3.9
LT : 3.9
* : 1.6

Southern Greeks (Sterea Hellas & Peloponnese) (264 samples)
I : 12.9
R1a : 10.2
R1b : 20.5
E1b : 25.8
G2 : 3.4
J2 : 19.7
J1 : 2.3
LT : 3.8
* : 1.5

Eastern Greeks (Aegean islands & Ionia) (158 samples)
I : 11.4
R1a : 7.6
R1b : 22.8
E1b : 20.3
G2 : 8.2
J2 : 19.6
J1 : 5.1
LT : 3.2
* : 1.9

Cretan Greeks (Crete) (193 samples)
I : 13.0
R1a : 8.8
R1b : 17.1
E1b : 8.8
G2 : 10.9
J2 : 30.6
J1 : 8.3
LT : 2.6
*: -

All Greeks (1038 samples)
I : 15.1
R1a : 12.0
R1b : 16.9
E1b : 21.0
G2 : 6.3
J2 : 20.1
J1 : 4.3
LT : 3.2
*: 1.1

Are they outdated or maybe not so accurate in the first place?

[Alexandra_K]

Dobro jutro!

Here is a list of words of Slavic origin in Greek in general (not restricted to our area):

(My mom has highlighted the words my grandparents were using too)
ΣΛΑΒΙΚΕΣ ΛΕΞΕΙΣ  ΣΤΑ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΑ    ΟΤΙ ΚΙΤΡΙΝΟ ΤΟ ΧΡΗΣΙΜΟΠΟΙΟΥΣΕ Η ΜΑΝΑ ΜΟΥ

αγκιτάτορας
ασβός
αστρέχα [το γείσο της στέγης]
βάβω/μπάμπω
βαγένι
βάλτος
βαρδάρης
βεδούρα [ξύλινο δοχείο για το γάλα]
βερβερίτσα
βίδρα
βίτσα
βλάχος
βοεβόδας
βολοδέρνω [κατά το ΛΚΝ μόνο, ο Μπαμπινιώτης παράγει τη λέξη από τον βώλο του χώματος]
βότκα
βρικόλακας
γιάφκα
γκλάβα
γκλαβανή [η καταπακτή]
γκορτσιά
γουστερίτσα
γράνα [χαντάκι]
γρεντιά [ξύλινο δοκάρι]
ζαβλακώνομαι [κατά Μπαμπινιώτη μόνο, το ΛΚΝ παράγει από ζαβώνω+βλακώνω]
ζαλίκι [φορτίο, και ρ. ζαλικώνω/ζαλώνω]
ζούζουλο [ζωύφιο]
ιντελιγκέντσια
καρβέλι
καρούτα [ποτίστρα για τα ζώα]
καρτόφι [πατάτες στα ποντιακά]
καστραβέτσι [αγγούρι]
κλούβιος [κατά ΛΚΝ, ο Μπαμπινιώτης εκφράζει επιφυλάξεις]
κνούτο
κολεκτίβα
κολχόζ
κόρα
κόσα     [γεωργικό κοπτικό εργαλείο]
κοτσάνι [ο Μπαμπινιώτης θεωρεί πως είναι τουρκικό δάνειο, πιθανώς σλαβικής απώτερης αρχής]
κοτσίδα [ο Μπαμπινιώτης δίνει ελληνική ετυμολογία]
κουλάκος
κουνάβι
κούρκος
κουρνιάζω
κουτάβι
λακκούβα [με παρετυμολογία προς τον λάκκο]
λόγγος
λούτσα [κατά Μπαμπινιώτη είναι αλβανικό δάνειο]
μαγούλα
μαζούτ [το ΛΚΝ το θεωρεί δάνειο από αγγλ. ή γαλλικά, ρωσικής αρχής]
μενσεβίκος
μισίρκα [γαλοπούλα στα σερρέικα]
μόρα
μουζίκος
μουντός
μπαλαμούτι
μπάρα [με τη σημασία ‘λάκκος με νερά, λιμνούλα’]
μπέμπελη
μπολσεβίκος
μπουχός
μπράτιμος
μπροστέλα [με παρασύνδεση με τη λέξη ‘μπροστά’]
νομενκλατούρα
ντιρεκτίβα
ντόμπρος
οβορός [περιφραγμένη αυλή]
πάπρικα
περεστρόικα
πέστροφα [παρετυμ. σύνδεση με το «επιστρέφω»]
πιροσκί
πλάβα [βάρκα λιμνίσια χωρίς καρίνα]
πλόσκα [ξύλινο φλασκί]
πογκρόμ
προβοκάτσια
πρόγκα
ραβάνι [το ρυθμικό βάδισμα αλόγου, ο πλαγιοτροχισμός]
ραβασάκι
ρεκάζω
ρήσος [ο λύγκας]
ρούβλι
ρούχο
σαμοβάρι
σανός
σβάρνα
σέμπρος
σμερδάκι [χαμοδράκι, είδος ξωτικού]
σοβιέτ
σουβάλα [φυσικός ταμιευτήρας νερού]
σπούτνικ
στούμπος
τζόρας
τραντάζω [ο Μπαμπινιώτης δίνει και ελληνική εκδοχή]
τρόικα
τσαντίλα [το αραιοφαμένο σακούλι]
τσάρος
τσέλιγκας
τσέργα [βελέντζα]
τσίπα
τσίτσα [ξύλινο δοχείο για κρασί]
φράξια
χουγιάζω
 

 

[Alexandra_K]

Sorry, I tried re-highlighting the words myself from my phone because the highlighting got "lost" by copy-pasting, but I couldn't do it well. So here is the list with highlighted words as my mother did it. Just ignore the previous one, thank you.

Dobro jutro!

Here is a list of words of Slavic origin in Greek in general (not restricted to our area):

(My mom has highlighted the words my grandparents were using too)
ΣΛΑΒΙΚΕΣ ΛΕΞΕΙΣ  ΣΤΑ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΑ    ΟΤΙ ΚΙΤΡΙΝΟ ΤΟ ΧΡΗΣΙΜΟΠΟΙΟΥΣΕ Η ΜΑΝΑ ΜΟΥ

αγκιτάτορας
ασβός
αστρέχα [το γείσο της στέγης]
βάβω/μπάμπω
βαγένι
βάλτος
βαρδάρης
βεδούρα [ξύλινο δοχείο για το γάλα]
βερβερίτσα
βίδρα
βίτσα
βλάχος
βοεβόδας
βολοδέρνω [κατά το ΛΚΝ μόνο, ο Μπαμπινιώτης παράγει τη λέξη από τον βώλο του χώματος]
βότκα
βρικόλακας
γιάφκα
γκλάβα
γκλαβανή [η καταπακτή]
γκορτσιά
γουστερίτσα
γράνα [χαντάκι]
γρεντιά [ξύλινο δοκάρι]
ζαβλακώνομαι [κατά Μπαμπινιώτη μόνο, το ΛΚΝ παράγει από ζαβώνω+βλακώνω]
ζαλίκι [φορτίο, και ρ. ζαλικώνω/ζαλώνω]
ζούζουλο [ζωύφιο]
ιντελιγκέντσια
καρβέλι
καρούτα [ποτίστρα για τα ζώα]
καρτόφι [πατάτες στα ποντιακά]
καστραβέτσι [αγγούρι]
κλούβιος [κατά ΛΚΝ, ο Μπαμπινιώτης εκφράζει επιφυλάξεις]
κνούτο
κολεκτίβα
κολχόζ
κόρα
κόσα     [γεωργικό κοπτικό εργαλείο]
κοτσάνι [ο Μπαμπινιώτης θεωρεί πως είναι τουρκικό δάνειο, πιθανώς σλαβικής απώτερης αρχής]
κοτσίδα [ο Μπαμπινιώτης δίνει ελληνική ετυμολογία]
κουλάκος
κουνάβι
κούρκος
κουρνιάζω
κουτάβι
λακκούβα [με παρετυμολογία προς τον λάκκο]
λόγγος
λούτσα [κατά Μπαμπινιώτη είναι αλβανικό δάνειο]
μαγούλα
μαζούτ [το ΛΚΝ το θεωρεί δάνειο από αγγλ. ή γαλλικά, ρωσικής αρχής]
μενσεβίκος
μισίρκα [γαλοπούλα στα σερρέικα]
μόρα
μουζίκος
μουντός
μπαλαμούτι
μπάρα [με τη σημασία ‘λάκκος με νερά, λιμνούλα’]
μπέμπελη
μπολσεβίκος
μπουχός
μπράτιμος
μπροστέλα [με παρασύνδεση με τη λέξη ‘μπροστά’]
νομενκλατούρα
ντιρεκτίβα
ντόμπρος
οβορός [περιφραγμένη αυλή]
πάπρικα
περεστρόικα
πέστροφα [παρετυμ. σύνδεση με το «επιστρέφω»]
πιροσκί
πλάβα [βάρκα λιμνίσια χωρίς καρίνα]
πλόσκα [ξύλινο φλασκί]
πογκρόμ
προβοκάτσια
πρόγκα
ραβάνι [το ρυθμικό βάδισμα αλόγου, ο πλαγιοτροχισμός]
ραβασάκι
ρεκάζω
ρήσος [ο λύγκας]
ρούβλι
ρούχο
σαμοβάρι
σανός
σβάρνα
σέμπρος
σμερδάκι [χαμοδράκι, είδος ξωτικού]
σοβιέτ
σουβάλα [φυσικός ταμιευτήρας νερού]
σπούτνικ
στούμπος
τζόρας
τραντάζω [ο Μπαμπινιώτης δίνει και ελληνική εκδοχή]
τρόικα
τσαντίλα [το αραιοφαμένο σακούλι]
τσάρος
τσέλιγκας
τσέργα [βελέντζα]
τσίπα
τσίτσα [ξύλινο δοχείο για κρασί]
φράξια
χουγιάζω

[НиколаВук]

https://goo.gl/images/vLPJ7D

Is this accurate?

And this?
Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin
Northern Greeks (Thrace & Macedonia) (296 samples)
I : 21.6
R1a : 18.2
R1b : 13.2
E1b : 20.6
G2 : 4.7
J2 : 14.9
J1 : 3.4
LT : 2.7
* : 0.7

Central Greeks (Epirus & Thessaly) (127 samples)
I : 12.6
R1a : 11.8
R1b : 10.2
E1b : 31.5
G2 : 6.3
J2 : 18.1
J1 : 3.9
LT : 3.9
* : 1.6

Southern Greeks (Sterea Hellas & Peloponnese) (264 samples)
I : 12.9
R1a : 10.2
R1b : 20.5
E1b : 25.8
G2 : 3.4
J2 : 19.7
J1 : 2.3
LT : 3.8
* : 1.5

Eastern Greeks (Aegean islands & Ionia) (158 samples)
I : 11.4
R1a : 7.6
R1b : 22.8
E1b : 20.3
G2 : 8.2
J2 : 19.6
J1 : 5.1
LT : 3.2
* : 1.9

Cretan Greeks (Crete) (193 samples)
I : 13.0
R1a : 8.8
R1b : 17.1
E1b : 8.8
G2 : 10.9
J2 : 30.6
J1 : 8.3
LT : 2.6
*: -

All Greeks (1038 samples)
I : 15.1
R1a : 12.0
R1b : 16.9
E1b : 21.0
G2 : 6.3
J2 : 20.1
J1 : 4.3
LT : 3.2
*: 1.1

Are they outdated or maybe not so accurate in the first place?

I think maybe it's outdated, but it's probably accurate.  The majority of haplogroup I is probably I2a Dinaric (I2a-YP196), and the majority of R1a is probably M458 and Z280.

[Alexandra_K]

Thank you, Nikola

A bit unexpected for Epirus to have rather low frequencies of I and R1a, for example Crete seems to have higher I than Epirus. I feel a bit ignorant on this level, I feel I miss a lot of info in order to understand it well.

[НиколаВук]

Thank you, Nikola

A bit unexpected for Epirus to have rather low frequencies of I and R1a, for example Crete seems to have higher I than Epirus. I feel a bit ignorant on this level, I feel I miss a lot of info in order to understand it well.

Well, it can hardly be expected that "Slavic" haplogroups in Epirus would have higher percentages than haplogroups that are typical for Mediterranean and Greeks in general, but even their presence (over 10%) is telling. I think you should look up this topic:

https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=95.0

There is some data on Greek population genomics on that topic that maybe isn't as outdated as the one you posted on this topic. 

[Alexandra_K]

Thank you! :-) I will take a look now!

[Alexandra_K]

I will look at it again later when I will be at home in order to use the automatic translation. I still read Cyrillic veeery slowly :-) When it is written with Latin characters I can read it at a better pace and start to be able to understand a little.

[НиколаВук]

I will look at it again later when I will be at home in order to use the automatic translation. I still read Cyrillic veeery slowly :-) When it is written with Latin characters I can read it at a better pace and start to be able to understand a little.

Cyrillic script is not that different from the Greek alphabet, in fact, many of the letters are the same.  I think you just need a period of adjustment, that's all.  Cyrillic script and Greek alphabet are more closely related than either of them are to the Latin script.

[Alexandra_K]

True, I think I need a period of adjustment  I mix the и and the н a lot still for example. For us it's almost the other way around. I was taught the English alphabet already at 5 so it feels very familiar. And I speak and write also in Dutch and Italian and a little bit in German. So yes, I need to adjust for sure Hope it's not going to take me ages...

[Alexandra_K]

Hello again,
I followed quite a few pages of the thread about Greece, thank you, it is very interesting!
I would like to ask you about some other toponyms (of villages not that far away from ours). Somebody mentions them as Slavic (and I believe he must be right) but except for about 2 of them, there is no info on the internet. Since there is somebody that doubts their Slavic origin :-), I would like to ask you guys just to be sure.

Kosovista (this one I confirmed as "Slavic")
Koukoulitsa?
Gretsista (this too I have confirmed)
Lepiana (from lep??)
Schoretsena/Schoretsena (I put "CH" instead of the Serbian "h" or "х")

Thank you!

[НиколаВук]

Hello again,
I followed quite a few pages of the thread about Greece, thank you, it is very interesting!
I would like to ask you about some other toponyms (of villages not that far away from ours). Somebody mentions them as Slavic (and I believe he must be right) but except for about 2 of them, there is no info on the internet. Since there is somebody that doubts their Slavic origin :-), I would like to ask you guys just to be sure.

Kosovista (this one I confirmed as "Slavic")
Koukoulitsa?
Gretsista (this too I have confirmed)
Lepiana (from lep??)
Schoretsena/Schoretsena (I put "CH" instead of the Serbian "h" or "х")

Thank you!

Kosovista is probably from the term for a blackbird, "кос". It has the same root as Kosovo. Koukoulitsa is maybe from the Greek term for doll, "koukla"? That term is present in the Bulgarian language also, as a loanword from Greek with the same meaning, and it's often used when naming certain mountain peaks or hilltops. I don't know why it is used in that way.  Although, maybe it doesn't come from that word at all, but it sure has a recognizable Slavic ending (-itsa). Gretsista also has a Slavic ending, but I have no idea what the first part would mean (Gretsi), maybe Greeks? So it would then mean "the Greek place" or "the place of Greeks", but I'm not sure if that's the right etymology. Lepiana and Schoretsena are really an enigma for me, and I don't think that Lepiana has anything to do with "леп", which can mean "beautiful" or "daub" (as in "wattle and daub", construction technique for building simple houses), depending on context. I think that these last two terms are not Slavic in origin.

[Alexandra_K]

Ćao Nikola,

Hvala! :-)

For Kosovitsa I found indeed the same explanation as you did. BTW I think that the same black bird in Greek is called kotsifi (its etymology seems to be ancient Greek).  This  village name must really be Slavic.

For Koukoulitsa I have my doubts too. It has the typical slavic ending -itsa. Koukouli in Greek means cocoon (eg. of silk worms). Koukla is indeed doll and the two words (cocoon+doll) seem to be related. Also I think that in Albanian kukulla is doll. I did not know that places like mountain peaks and hilltops are named like this in Bulgarian. This could also be connected to the name of the village.

According to an explanation I found, Gretsista indeed means place of the Greeks (probably Slavic).

About Lepiana and Schoretsena I wasn't able to find anything more specific. The connection with lep was just my wild guess. :-)

Thank you again!

Thank you again!

[НиколаВук]

Ćao Nikola,

Hvala! :-)

For Kosovitsa I found indeed the same explanation as you did. BTW I think that the same black bird in Greek is called kotsifi (its etymology seems to be ancient Greek).  This  village name must really be Slavic.

For Koukoulitsa I have my doubts too. It has the typical slavic ending -itsa. Koukouli in Greek means cocoon (eg. of silk worms). Koukla is indeed doll and the two words (cocoon+doll) seem to be related. Also I think that in Albanian kukulla is doll. I did not know that places like mountain peaks and hilltops are named like this in Bulgarian. This could also be connected to the name of the village.

According to an explanation I found, Gretsista indeed means place of the Greeks (probably Slavic).

About Lepiana and Schoretsena I wasn't able to find anything more specific. The connection with lep was just my wild guess. :-)

Thank you again!

Thank you again!

You're welcome! 

[Karadag]

Ćao Nikola,

Hvala! :-)

For Kosovitsa I found indeed the same explanation as you did. BTW I think that the same black bird in Greek is called kotsifi (its etymology seems to be ancient Greek).  This  village name must really be Slavic.

For Koukoulitsa I have my doubts too. It has the typical slavic ending -itsa. Koukouli in Greek means cocoon (eg. of silk worms). Koukla is indeed doll and the two words (cocoon+doll) seem to be related. Also I think that in Albanian kukulla is doll. I did not know that places like mountain peaks and hilltops are named like this in Bulgarian. This could also be connected to the name of the village.

According to an explanation I found, Gretsista indeed means place of the Greeks (probably Slavic).

About Lepiana and Schoretsena I wasn't able to find anything more specific. The connection with lep was just my wild guess. :-)

Thank you again!

Thank you again!

Kukuljica in Serbo-Croatian means the pupal stage of insect growth, after the larval stage. I believe it it etymologically similar to the Greek koukouli. Kukuljica is in fact a toponym in Bosnia and Herzegovina - see http://www.geonames.org/search.html?q=kukuljica Similar toponyms include Kukulje in Montenegro and Kukulja in Bulgaria.

Grecište or Grečište could indeed indicate place of the Greeks, but the construction seems off. In Serbo-Croatian and Macedonian, the construction would be Grcište, or even Grčište. The Bulgarian variation for Grčište is Гърчище, or roughly Garčište. The variation seen in Greece must come from some dialectal construction denoting the Greeks as Greci, not Grci or Garci as seen in the standardized South Slavic languages. It's certainly not unknown that Greece has been called Grecija by the Slavs, so the term Greci shouldn't be totally foreign to us.

An interesting result showed up when searching "гречиште" (grečište), which side by side translations of phrases in Macedonian, Albanian and Turkish. The term гречиште corresponds to Albanian "greqishte", which is a reflex of the word "greqisht" signifying the adjective "Greek", in this case specifically Greek language. (source)

There is another toponym, in Russia and Ukraine, гречище (grečišče), but I'm not sure the meaning of the toponym.

[Alexandra_K]

Zdravo Karadag,

Thank you very much for the very interesting information. In the Greek language there is no way someone could pronounce  Grcišste without any vowel in between, :-) so it's very probable that the initial word just took an extra vowel in between. Otherwise, it could be indeed connected to these other options you mention. Interesting that a similar version exists as toponym in Russia and the Ukraine.

Kukuljica is another interesting case. Yes, koukouli has exactly the same meaning in Greek, I wonder what is its etymology ( I looked it up a few days ago and managed to forget already :-) ).

Thank you again for the great input!

[Alexandra_K]

The etymology of koukouli is Latin so it could be that we both borrowed it from the Latin language. The construction of the toponym with the ending -itsa is typical of Slavic toponyms I would think. The same toponym exists in Bosnia and Herzegovina etc. as you say. That is also why the village has been renamed to Koukoulia (plural of koukouli) which sounds and is more Greek.