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J1 PF7263 from Greece

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Alexandra_K:
Ćao svima!
 
My name is Alexandra and I come from Greece. My father belongs to the paternal haplogroup J1 PF7263. He is Greek too and his paternal family comes from Kephalonia.
I started a thread about it on Anthrogenica some time ago and a nice Serbian guy (thank you BMK!) recommended me to register in your forum in order to ask you about it. There seems to be a Serbian group of this specific subclade, right?
My father has only tested his Y-haplogroup at 23andme where he got broadly J1 as a result. He transferred to Wegene where he was assigned to J1a2a1a1 (another name for the above subclade). Some very helpful guys on Anthrogenica helped me confirm this. So he has done no further testing but we already know he belongs to J1 PF7263.
There are 3 other Greek cases of PF7263 but they belong to three different clusters: one is from Thessaloniki but he has a Turkish-sounding name (Davut?), the other one (Venardos) comes from Kythira (another Ionian island) and the third (Maragoudakis) comes from Crete. Rationally speaking he could be connected to Venardos' cluster since the two islands are geographically not so far from each other and they both belong to the Ionian islands. Or maybe, he is connected to another cluster that would be less rational (you never know!).
I was wondering if any further testing would help us clarify this. BMK suggested I write an e-mail to Y-seq to ask them about it. I already did so and I am waiting for their answer.
In the meanwhile, I wanted to ask you if you happen to have any additional info. As well as introduce myself to you all and to you fellow Serbian J1-PF7263-ers!!
By the way, as of recenlty I am trying to learn Serbian :-) as I decided to learn a new language belonging to some of my newly discovered ancestries :-) Historically speaking, my maternal family's village in Epirus (Ekklisohori/older name Tserkovista) was a Slavic settlement of the Middle Ages (Vajunites) so I decided to learn a Slavic language. I chose Serbian because maybe as a Greek I somewhat felt more connection to the specific culture and also because you write both in Cyrillic and in Latin.
That's it for now! Looking forward to your answers!
Pozdravljam vas!
Alexandra

Црна Гуја:
Ćao Alexandra, and welcome to our forum!

Your father belongs to one of the rarest J1 subclades, found mostly between Central-Eastern Europe and Middle East. The most recent common ancestor of all members of this clade lived some 3400 years ago, according to Yfull. The only way to find out for sure who are his closest matches, and to which cluster he belongs, is to test Y-STR markers, and you basically have two options to do that:

1. Yseq, Germany, where I would reccomend ordering Alpha-Beta panel ($85), which contains first 37 STR markers (in FTDNA order). You can later order additional panel(s) if you want, without having to send new sample. The results are usually done in about a month-month and a half.

https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=34&osCsid=e3f3e7ecae94b7daac41db35a865e0a9

2. FTDNA, USA, where you can choose between several options (37, 67 or 111 STR markers), but it is fairly more expensive than Yseq. It will probably take them longer to deliver the results, too.

https://www.familytreedna.com/products/y-dna

Although a little outdated, this is still the best and most accurate tree of clade PF7263/ZS4416, but I'm not sure to which of these subclades those other Greeks belong. The subclade to which "Serbian cluster" belongs is above the surname Maksimović.

Alexandra_K:
Thank you, Црна Гуја! I hadn't realized it was so rare...Interesting...
Below I am copying the comment of this very helpful user on Anthrogenica plus an addition made by another very helpful user :-). It contains some info about the Greek cases too:

So in the FTDNA J1 Project’s tree, PF7263 has two branches, ZS4376 and Z28138.

The ZS4376 is estimated to have formed 3,460 years ago.

There are no cases with only ZS4376; instead there are two further branches.

One is ZS8957. That case is German.

The other branch of ZS4376 is ZS4407. ZS4407 is estimated to have formed 2,998 years ago. There are no cases with just ZS4407; instead there are three further branches.

One is ZS4375. That case is French.

The second is ZS9949. ZS9949 is estimated to have formed 1,758 years ago. There are no cases with just ZS9949; instead there are two further branches. One is a German case, the other is a Croatian case.

The third is ZS10589. ZS10589 is estimated to have formed 2,975 years ago. There are no cases with just ZS10589; instead there are two further branches. One is a Ukrainian case, the other is a Saudi Arabian case.

Besides the extensively tested cases in the tree, many cases which look similar are grouped on the list at https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults. If that clustering is correct, PF7263 has:
— an English and German cluster
— a German cluster
— a Greek cluster of only one person (Yavit of Davut Thessaloniki)
— a Kuwaiti and Iraqi cluster
— an Iraqi, Turkish, and Azerbaijani cluster

ZS4376 has:
— a person named Sliwinski from ?
— a German and Canary Islands cluster
— a French cluster (just one person)
— a Bulgarian cluster (just one person)

ZS9949 has a cluster of German, Croatian, and Bosnian Herzegovinan cases

ZS10589 has:
— a case Maragoudakis from Sassalos Crete
— a case from Spain
— a cluster with cases from Portugal, Ukraine, Lithuania, and Russia
— a cluster with cases from Calabria, Germany, Ukraine, and France
— a Saudi and Yemeni cluster

+ You also have Venardos from Agia Anastasia on island Kythira. he is considered J1 PF7263 cluster D. Main difference between him and Maragoudakis is in DYS390. Maragoudakis have 24 and Venardos 25.

The Alpha-Beta panel sounds like a good deal! So, do you think that it can really result into something more specific (as in a specific branch of J1 PF7263)? I am still waiting for their answer to my e-mail, hoping that they do respond to such inquiries, of course.

Thanks again! Hvala! :-)

Црна Гуја:

--- Цитат: Alexandra_K  Јул 02, 2018, 09:36:18 поподне ---The Alpha-Beta panel sounds like a good deal! So, do you think that it can really result into something more specific (as in a specific branch of J1 PF7263)? I am still waiting for their answer to my e-mail, hoping that they do respond to such inquiries, of course.

Thanks again! Hvala! :-)

--- Крај цитата ---

You're welcome.

Well, the Alpha-Beta panel is good for starters, it should show which of these clusters your father most closely match, and predict most probable subclade. If that would be the case, the next step would be ordering specific SNP at Yseq to confirm that prediction.

Just a small correction of the above comment you cited from Anthrogenica, there aren't any public Croatian PF7263 results that I know of. I called it "Serbian cluster" for a reason, as it currently consists of about 30 Serbs, mostly from Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia, and 2 Bosniaks.

Alexandra_K:
Thank you again! Ok, then it does sound like a good solution... Do you know if ordering the more specific SNP's later could be very expensive? Because I would like to avoid going into very high expenses...Would one have the same or a more specific result with the option of the FTDNA y-37?
Thank you very much for the correction as well! Wow, 30 is a big number, quite interesting! How can their presence in Serbia be explained?
Dobar dan!

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