Аутор Тема: Question about Serbian language  (Прочитано 2738 пута)

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Question about Serbian language
« послато: Август 23, 2020, 03:50:54 пре подне »
Hi! 
I know the Serbian language is difficult to learn (especially if not in a home environment or educational setting.)  So I realize my inquiry may not be able to answered fully in a forum.

Why do names (both people and places) have various endings/forms?
Example:  BATALO Dukana  .......  Mrzlom Polju

Why is there an A at the end of his name?   
Why are the letters changed at the end of Mrzlo Polje?

Thanks!

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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #1 послато: Август 23, 2020, 07:00:35 пре подне »
Declination like in Latin.

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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #2 послато: Август 23, 2020, 09:35:30 пре подне »
Yes, search for grammatical cases in Serbian. It is not easy, but it is not too complicated as well :)

https://fastlanguagemastery.com/learn-foreign-languages/serbian-language/introduction-to-serbian-cases/

When you search for names or places in our digital library, better add * so that the search includes different endings :)
Столећима је мој род крш оро
и поповао или кметовао

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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #3 послато: Август 23, 2020, 10:22:30 пре подне »
Hi! 
I know the Serbian language is difficult to learn (especially if not in a home environment or educational setting.)  So I realize my inquiry may not be able to answered fully in a forum.

Why do names (both people and places) have various endings/forms?
Example:  BATALO Dukana  .......  Mrzlom Polju

Why is there an A at the end of his name?   
Why are the letters changed at the end of Mrzlo Polje?

Thanks!

I hope soon, there will be at least one book for learning Serbian on English in Digital Library, and some of earlier mentioned books on English that we're preparing also have short guides in Serbian.



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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #4 послато: Август 23, 2020, 10:33:42 пре подне »
When you search for names or places in our digital library, better add * so that the search includes different endings :)

I use it almost always, because the software sometimes makes a mistake adding some punctuation mark on the end of the word, usually it is the apostrophe character. If that is the case, the searching term will not be recognized, if you don't put an asterisk (*).



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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #5 послато: Август 23, 2020, 05:29:41 поподне »
All very valuable responses.  Thank you.  It has been 35 years or so since I had a few years of latin and....like most things I realize as an adult...I wish I had paid more attention at the time.  :)  But thank you for the link to the quick reference on Serbian cases of declination...it answers my question.
Also very good tip on the search value.  I will do that now.

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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #6 послато: Август 23, 2020, 06:02:58 поподне »
In Serbian language there’s 7 declination cases of nouns, so the toponyme Mrzlo Polje is declined like this:

Nom: Mrzlo Polje
Gen: Mrzlog Polja
Dat: Mrzlom Polju
Accus: Mrzlo Polje
Voc: Mrzlo Polje
Instr: Mrzlim Poljem
Loc: Mrzlom Polju
"Наша мука ваља за причешћа"

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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #7 послато: Август 23, 2020, 11:11:43 поподне »
Amazing.  All of you that are bilingual and multilingual are impressive.  I am lucky to be able to use Spanglish to order at a mexican restaurant.

So a male name (normally not ending in A) would end in -a to show genitive case to show origin.
As in Batalo, Damjan (only a male's name) to show the father of would change it to genitive  Batalo, Damjana BOZO
Because Bozo originated/is of from Damjan ? 

I hope that is the correct interpretation. 

But that is only if the father's name ends in a consonant.  I was googling to understand the exception on names like Rade, Marko etc.  Then there is no change to the nominative form to indicate genitive case?

I referenced www.studyserbian.com  they do have a nice pdf that illustrates a table of noun gender and declinations.  But other than saying that Rade, Marko would look like Class 1 neuter but are really Class 1 male...they don't indicate how to change these types of names (male names that end -e or end - o)  to genitive. 


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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #8 послато: Август 23, 2020, 11:23:00 поподне »
Amazing.  All of you that are bilingual and multilingual are impressive.  I am lucky to be able to use Spanglish to order at a mexican restaurant.

So a male name (normally not ending in A) would end in -a to show genitive case to show origin.
As in Batalo, Damjan (only a male's name) to show the father of would change it to genitive  Batalo, Damjana BOZO
Because Bozo originated/is of from Damjan ? 

I hope that is the correct interpretation. 

But that is only if the father's name ends in a consonant.  I was googling to understand the exception on names like Rade, Marko etc.  Then there is no change to the nominative form to indicate genitive case?

I referenced www.studyserbian.com  they do have a nice pdf that illustrates a table of noun gender and declinations.  But other than saying that Rade, Marko would look like Class 1 neuter but are really Class 1 male...they don't indicate how to change these types of names (male names that end -e or end - o)  to genitive.

Genitive case of Rade would be "Rada" or "Radeta", depending on whether you're an Ijekavian (Rada) or Ekavian (Radeta) speaker. Genitive case of Marko is always "Marka".
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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #9 послато: Август 23, 2020, 11:38:45 поподне »
Genitive case of Rade would be "Rada" or "Radeta", depending on whether you're an Ijekavian (Rada) or Ekavian (Radeta) speaker. Genitive case of Marko is always "Marka".

"Radeta" is not Ekavian per se. "Rada" is still the norm in my Ekavian hometown of Valjevo, for example.  :D

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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #10 послато: Август 23, 2020, 11:42:30 поподне »
"Radeta" is not Ekavian per se. "Rada" is still the norm in my Ekavian hometown of Valjevo, for example.  :D
Do not make her confused at early begining ...Teach her exeptions litle later

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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #11 послато: Август 23, 2020, 11:48:16 поподне »
Serbian language is very hard for who is not Serb. Look 7 declinations of my name Predrag , and of name Nikola.
Predrag                              Nikola
Predraga                            Nikole
Predragu                            Nikoli
Predrag                              Nikola
Predraze                            Nikola
Predragom                         Nikolom
Predragu                            Nikoli
This is not all , other 2 ways to finished my name and also name Nikola.
In english language. This is Predrag's sister. In serbian language. Ovo je Predragova sestra.
This is Predrag's brother.      Ovo je Predragov brat.
This is Nikola's sister.           Ovo je Nikolina sestra.
This is Nikola's brother.        Ovo je Nikolin brat.

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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #12 послато: Август 23, 2020, 11:50:39 поподне »
"Radeta" is not Ekavian per se. "Rada" is still the norm in my Ekavian hometown of Valjevo, for example.  :D

Yes, but it was Ijekavian 100 years ago, right?  ;) Some traces and influences always remain.
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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #13 послато: Август 23, 2020, 11:54:00 поподне »
Serbian language is very hard for who is not Serb. Look 7 declinations of my name Predrag , and of name Nikola.
Predrag                              Nikola
Predraga                            Nikole
Predragu                            Nikoli
Predrag                              Nikola
Predraze                            Nikola
Predragom                         Nikolom
Predragu                            Nikoli
This is not all , other 2 ways to finished my name and also name Nikola.
In english language. This is Predrag's sister. In serbian language. Ovo je Predragova sestra.
This is Predrag's brother.      Ovo je Predragov brat.
This is Nikola's sister.           Ovo je Nikolina sestra.
This is Nikola's brother.        Ovo je Nikolin brat.

Accusative case of Predrag and Nikola (4th in order) should be "Predraga" and "Nikolu". Old vocative for Nikola would be "Nikolo", but it is seldom used today (except by our dear Nevski).
Чињеницама против самоувереног незнања.

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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #14 послато: Август 23, 2020, 11:56:13 поподне »
Genitive case of Rade would be "Rada" or "Radeta", depending on whether you're an Ijekavian (Rada) or Ekavian (Radeta) speaker. Genitive case of Marko is always "Marka".
                Nikola , I am ijekavian , but I said Radeta. Rada is in Montenegro.

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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #15 послато: Август 23, 2020, 11:59:21 поподне »
Accusative case of Predrag and Nikola (4th in order) should be "Predraga" and "Nikolu". Old vocative for Nikola would be "Nikolo", but it is seldom used today (except by our dear Nevski).
        U pravu si. My mistake.

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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #16 послато: Август 24, 2020, 12:06:00 пре подне »
Michelle, you must go in Nis and Pirot , two cities in south Serbia. People from Nis and Pirot speak without declinations. This is the thrut.

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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #17 послато: Август 24, 2020, 12:52:57 пре подне »
Grammatically feminine nouns ending in "-a" (a great majority of all feminine nouns, probably 85-90%) and their very straightforward rules

eg sestra = sister

Nominative : sestr{a} -- no preposition, Sentence Subject
Genitive: sestr{e} -- prepositions meaning "of", "from"
Dative/Locative: sestr{i} -- prepositions meaning "to" (Dative) or "in", "at", "about" (Locative)
Accusative: sestr{u} -- generally no preposition, Direct Object, in some very special cases, like the
           verb "look", the meaning of the preposition "at", eg "gledam sestru" = "I watch [my] sister" but
           "gledam u sestru" = "I am looking at [my] sister", also "zaklinjem se u sestru" = "I take an oath on
           the name of [my] sister" and such.
Vocative: sestr{o} -- no preposition, appelative
Instrumental: sestr{om} -- prepositions meaning "through", "by (the means of)"

Only for personal names, Vocative is nowadays mostly equal to Nominative ie ends in "-a", traditionally it has "-o". Words meaning natural masculine gender ending in "-a" like "sudija", "Nikola" and "Ilija" fall under the same rules, for all purposes they are grammatical feminine gender but are referred to as masculinum out of common courtesy.

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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #18 послато: Август 24, 2020, 01:40:33 пре подне »
Genitive case of Rade would be "Rada" or "Radeta", depending on whether you're an Ijekavian (Rada) or Ekavian (Radeta) speaker. Genitive case of Marko is always "Marka".

It can be also "Rade". That for is used in southern and western Herzegovina.
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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #19 послато: Август 24, 2020, 01:53:07 пре подне »
Genitive case of Rade would be "Rada" or "Radeta", depending on whether you're an Ijekavian (Rada) or Ekavian (Radeta) speaker. Genitive case of Marko is always "Marka".

Ok that is good to know.  (Don't worry...I am no where near the level to consider exceptions) 
I am just trying to get familiar with some things that I see frequently in the research I am doing.  I think that when you are trying to understand a language that is not taught to you formally...it good to start to learn things you will see frequently.
for instance...I always recognize the words:  roden, polje, zanimanje, dan, mesec i godina....
  ;)
It is weird though, because in that volume Kotar Slunj i Kotar Veljun ....it doesn't follow that genitive form for the male names ending in -e and -o.   Format is all the same. 
ex: 
entry #19. Krnic Dane PAVAO ....
entry #20. Majstorovic Ivana ANICA....

They didn't change Dane to Dana.  This is what prompted my question.   Since the format was consistent...I assumed that the first name after the surname was the fathers and then the second name was the decendent.

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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #20 послато: Август 24, 2020, 01:55:22 пре подне »
It can be also "Rade". That for is used in southern and western Herzegovina.

This book that I am looking at covers Karlovac and was published in 1988.  Was that the practice for that location and year as well?  Because i see all male names ending -e or -o unchanged to -a.

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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #21 послато: Август 24, 2020, 02:05:15 пре подне »
Michelle, you must go in Nis and Pirot , two cities in south Serbia. People from Nis and Pirot speak without declinations. This is the thrut.

I would love to some day.   I know nothing about that area so I googled it.   That skull tower is right out of an episode of game of thrones.   :o

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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #22 послато: Август 24, 2020, 02:07:56 пре подне »

entry #19. Krnic Dane PAVAO ....
entry #20. Majstorovic Ivana ANICA....

They didn't change Dane to Dana.  This is what prompted my question.   Since the format was consistent...I assumed that the first name after the surname was the fathers and then the second name was the decendent.
In this case father name is Dane. So, Pavao Krnic is son of Dane. In Krajina it was common male name. Female version is Dana (it exist in all Serb regions, from northwest to south, as name or nickname, for example derived from Danica).
''Заведени светским чудима, заборависмо на себе и на своје порекло." - М. Капор

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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #23 послато: Август 24, 2020, 02:11:42 пре подне »
In this case father name is Dane. So, Pavao Krnic is son of Dane. In Krajina it was common male name. Female version is Dana (it exist in all Serb regions, from northwest to south, as name or nickname, for example derived from Danica).

Yes...by why is it not genitive form?

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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #24 послато: Август 24, 2020, 02:18:05 пре подне »
Yes...by why is it not genitive form?
It's in genitive form, specific for that name from Krajina region.

I hope that someone can better explain You that local phenomenon.  :D
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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #25 послато: Август 24, 2020, 02:30:28 пре подне »
It's in genitive form, specific for that name from Krajina region.

I hope that someone can better explain You that local phenomenon.  :D

ok...I think I get it.  An exception in the Krajina region.  I was looking for consistencies  but in my reviewing of this book...because of the format  Surname, father name, decedent's name  I will not try to understand why there is no change to the -e or -o father's names.  Format is indicative of relationship.   I won't overthink it.  :)  Thank you.

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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #26 послато: Август 24, 2020, 05:56:57 пре подне »
It is weird though, because in that volume Kotar Slunj i Kotar Veljun ....it doesn't follow that genitive form for the male names ending in -e and -o.   Format is all the same. 
ex: 
entry #19. Krnic Dane PAVAO ....
entry #20. Majstorovic Ivana ANICA....

They didn't change Dane to Dana.  This is what prompted my question.   Since the format was consistent...I assumed that the first name after the surname was the fathers and then the second name was the decendent.

In this case, they probably put mother's name after surname and not that of a father. So - Pavao Krnic, son of Dana (female name), while "Ivana" is genitive case of Ivan, a male name, so - Anica Majstorovic, daughter of Ivan.
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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #27 послато: Август 24, 2020, 09:30:55 пре подне »
In this case, they probably put mother's name after surname and not that of a father. So - Pavao Krnic, son of Dana (female name), while "Ivana" is genitive case of Ivan, a male name, so - Anica Majstorovic, daughter of Ivan.

I don't think so. This is exactly what I mean when I said that male name Rade can be in genitive case Rade. Same goes for Dane. Nobody in Krajina or central and western Herzegovina will use form Dana or Daneta.

This book that I am looking at covers Karlovac and was published in 1988.  Was that the practice for that location and year as well?  Because i see all male names ending -e or -o unchanged to -a.

It depends mostly of the location, not so much about the year of publishing. In Karlovac, genitive case of male name Dane will be Dane, for sure.
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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #28 послато: Август 24, 2020, 11:26:40 пре подне »
It's something wrong with name Pavao. Name Pavao is croation version , Serbian version is Pavle. Maybe because book is made in Croatia.

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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #29 послато: Август 24, 2020, 12:07:39 поподне »
It's something wrong with name Pavao. Name Pavao is croation version , Serbian version is Pavle. Maybe because book is made in Croatia.

Some Serbs in Croatia also had name Pavao, even it is common for Croatians. Rarely, but it happened in the past.
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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #30 послато: Август 24, 2020, 12:21:06 поподне »
Some Serbs in Croatia also had name Pavao, even it is common for Croatians. Rarely, but it happened in the past.

Indeed my great-great-great-great-grandfather in Brusnik, Eastern Serbia was written in a Serbian tax book at the beginning of the XIX century as "Pavao" in Church-Slavonic Cyrillic. He was born before 1834, so I do not have his birth register excerpt, but that is how he is written down in a tax book.

Of course, the scribe could have come to Miloš Obrenović's autonomous Ottoman province of Serbia from Vojvodstvo of Serbs and Timis Banat or from Szlavonia, both in Austria at the time, and used a form he learned at a priests' seminary there and thought was more accurate.

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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #31 послато: Август 24, 2020, 01:25:07 поподне »
I am Serb from Croatia. I don't know one Serb from Croatia whose name is Pavao , Ivan , Ivica, Tomislav, Zvonimir. In Croatia it's impossible. In Serbia strangely , but it's possible.
In Croatia names of Serbs , Pavle , Jovan , Jovica. Tomislav and Zvonimir 0% of possibility.

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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #32 послато: Август 24, 2020, 05:38:02 поподне »
I don't think so. This is exactly what I mean when I said that male name Rade can be in genitive case Rade. Same goes for Dane. Nobody in Krajina or central and western Herzegovina will use form Dana or Daneta.

It depends mostly of the location, not so much about the year of publishing. In Karlovac, genitive case of male name Dane will be Dane, for sure.

This is entirely new to me, but Број 1 confirmed it. This is the first time I encountered the case of identical nominative and genitive and it's very strange. My ears are definitely not used to it.  :)
Чињеницама против самоувереног незнања.

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Одг: Question about Serbian language
« Одговор #33 послато: Август 24, 2020, 06:05:41 поподне »
This is entirely new to me, but Број 1 confirmed it. This is the first time I encountered the case of identical nominative and genitive and it's very strange. My ears are definitely not used to it.  :)

Impossible :). You know that dialect, I'm sure. For example, in Krajina, everybody will say "Добио сам књигу од Миле" but not "од Мила" or "од Милета". Same goes for Rade, Dane, Mane and similar names.
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« Одговор #34 послато: Август 24, 2020, 07:35:49 поподне »
Impossible :). You know that dialect, I'm sure. For example, in Krajina, everybody will say "Добио сам књигу од Миле" but not "од Мила" or "од Милета". Same goes for Rade, Dane, Mane and similar names.
Exactly, if you remember "Magareće godine" by Branko Ćopić, you know that Ćopić wrote "Mile" both in Nominative and Genitive, for example:
"Због нашег дружељубља, срдачности и увијек доброг расположења, уживали смо пуну заштиту Миле Шкорића и најбољих ђака из виших разреда."
 :)
Столећима је мој род крш оро
и поповао или кметовао