Аутор Тема: J1 PF7263 from Greece  (Прочитано 20294 пута)

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J1 PF7263 from Greece
« послато: Јул 02, 2018, 07:17:37 поподне »
Ćao svima!
 
My name is Alexandra and I come from Greece. My father belongs to the paternal haplogroup J1 PF7263. He is Greek too and his paternal family comes from Kephalonia.
I started a thread about it on Anthrogenica some time ago and a nice Serbian guy (thank you BMK!) recommended me to register in your forum in order to ask you about it. There seems to be a Serbian group of this specific subclade, right?
My father has only tested his Y-haplogroup at 23andme where he got broadly J1 as a result. He transferred to Wegene where he was assigned to J1a2a1a1 (another name for the above subclade). Some very helpful guys on Anthrogenica helped me confirm this. So he has done no further testing but we already know he belongs to J1 PF7263.
There are 3 other Greek cases of PF7263 but they belong to three different clusters: one is from Thessaloniki but he has a Turkish-sounding name (Davut?), the other one (Venardos) comes from Kythira (another Ionian island) and the third (Maragoudakis) comes from Crete. Rationally speaking he could be connected to Venardos' cluster since the two islands are geographically not so far from each other and they both belong to the Ionian islands. Or maybe, he is connected to another cluster that would be less rational (you never know!).
I was wondering if any further testing would help us clarify this. BMK suggested I write an e-mail to Y-seq to ask them about it. I already did so and I am waiting for their answer.
In the meanwhile, I wanted to ask you if you happen to have any additional info. As well as introduce myself to you all and to you fellow Serbian J1-PF7263-ers!!
By the way, as of recenlty I am trying to learn Serbian :-) as I decided to learn a new language belonging to some of my newly discovered ancestries :-) Historically speaking, my maternal family's village in Epirus (Ekklisohori/older name Tserkovista) was a Slavic settlement of the Middle Ages (Vajunites) so I decided to learn a Slavic language. I chose Serbian because maybe as a Greek I somewhat felt more connection to the specific culture and also because you write both in Cyrillic and in Latin.
That's it for now! Looking forward to your answers!
Pozdravljam vas!
Alexandra
« Последња измена: Јул 02, 2018, 07:20:57 поподне Alexandra_K »

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« Одговор #1 послато: Јул 02, 2018, 08:29:28 поподне »
Ćao Alexandra, and welcome to our forum!

Your father belongs to one of the rarest J1 subclades, found mostly between Central-Eastern Europe and Middle East. The most recent common ancestor of all members of this clade lived some 3400 years ago, according to Yfull. The only way to find out for sure who are his closest matches, and to which cluster he belongs, is to test Y-STR markers, and you basically have two options to do that:

1. Yseq, Germany, where I would reccomend ordering Alpha-Beta panel ($85), which contains first 37 STR markers (in FTDNA order). You can later order additional panel(s) if you want, without having to send new sample. The results are usually done in about a month-month and a half.

https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=34&osCsid=e3f3e7ecae94b7daac41db35a865e0a9

2. FTDNA, USA, where you can choose between several options (37, 67 or 111 STR markers), but it is fairly more expensive than Yseq. It will probably take them longer to deliver the results, too.

https://www.familytreedna.com/products/y-dna

Although a little outdated, this is still the best and most accurate tree of clade PF7263/ZS4416, but I'm not sure to which of these subclades those other Greeks belong. The subclade to which "Serbian cluster" belongs is above the surname Maksimović.





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« Одговор #2 послато: Јул 02, 2018, 09:36:18 поподне »
Thank you, Црна Гуја! I hadn't realized it was so rare...Interesting...
Below I am copying the comment of this very helpful user on Anthrogenica plus an addition made by another very helpful user :-). It contains some info about the Greek cases too:

So in the FTDNA J1 Project’s tree, PF7263 has two branches, ZS4376 and Z28138.

The ZS4376 is estimated to have formed 3,460 years ago.

There are no cases with only ZS4376; instead there are two further branches.

One is ZS8957. That case is German.

The other branch of ZS4376 is ZS4407. ZS4407 is estimated to have formed 2,998 years ago. There are no cases with just ZS4407; instead there are three further branches.

One is ZS4375. That case is French.

The second is ZS9949. ZS9949 is estimated to have formed 1,758 years ago. There are no cases with just ZS9949; instead there are two further branches. One is a German case, the other is a Croatian case.

The third is ZS10589. ZS10589 is estimated to have formed 2,975 years ago. There are no cases with just ZS10589; instead there are two further branches. One is a Ukrainian case, the other is a Saudi Arabian case.

Besides the extensively tested cases in the tree, many cases which look similar are grouped on the list at https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults. If that clustering is correct, PF7263 has:
— an English and German cluster
— a German cluster
— a Greek cluster of only one person (Yavit of Davut Thessaloniki)
— a Kuwaiti and Iraqi cluster
— an Iraqi, Turkish, and Azerbaijani cluster

ZS4376 has:
— a person named Sliwinski from ?
— a German and Canary Islands cluster
— a French cluster (just one person)
— a Bulgarian cluster (just one person)

ZS9949 has a cluster of German, Croatian, and Bosnian Herzegovinan cases

ZS10589 has:
— a case Maragoudakis from Sassalos Crete
— a case from Spain
— a cluster with cases from Portugal, Ukraine, Lithuania, and Russia
— a cluster with cases from Calabria, Germany, Ukraine, and France
— a Saudi and Yemeni cluster

+ You also have Venardos from Agia Anastasia on island Kythira. he is considered J1 PF7263 cluster D. Main difference between him and Maragoudakis is in DYS390. Maragoudakis have 24 and Venardos 25.

The Alpha-Beta panel sounds like a good deal! So, do you think that it can really result into something more specific (as in a specific branch of J1 PF7263)? I am still waiting for their answer to my e-mail, hoping that they do respond to such inquiries, of course.

Thanks again! Hvala! :-)


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« Одговор #3 послато: Јул 02, 2018, 11:48:48 поподне »
The Alpha-Beta panel sounds like a good deal! So, do you think that it can really result into something more specific (as in a specific branch of J1 PF7263)? I am still waiting for their answer to my e-mail, hoping that they do respond to such inquiries, of course.

Thanks again! Hvala! :-)

You're welcome.

Well, the Alpha-Beta panel is good for starters, it should show which of these clusters your father most closely match, and predict most probable subclade. If that would be the case, the next step would be ordering specific SNP at Yseq to confirm that prediction.

Just a small correction of the above comment you cited from Anthrogenica, there aren't any public Croatian PF7263 results that I know of. I called it "Serbian cluster" for a reason, as it currently consists of about 30 Serbs, mostly from Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia, and 2 Bosniaks.
« Последња измена: Јул 02, 2018, 11:56:39 поподне Црна Гуја »

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« Одговор #4 послато: Јул 03, 2018, 06:42:48 пре подне »
Thank you again! Ok, then it does sound like a good solution... Do you know if ordering the more specific SNP's later could be very expensive? Because I would like to avoid going into very high expenses...Would one have the same or a more specific result with the option of the FTDNA y-37?
Thank you very much for the correction as well! Wow, 30 is a big number, quite interesting! How can their presence in Serbia be explained?
Dobar dan!

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« Одговор #5 послато: Јул 03, 2018, 07:31:34 пре подне »
Thank you again! Ok, then it does sound like a good solution... Do you know if ordering the more specific SNP's later could be very expensive? Because I would like to avoid going into very high expenses...Would one have the same or a more specific result with the option of the FTDNA y-37?
Thank you very much for the correction as well! Wow, 30 is a big number, quite interesting! How can their presence in Serbia be explained?
Dobar dan!

Hello Alexandra and welcome on Poreklo! I'm Radonic ad i'm also J1 PF7263. I wrote something on Anthrogenica as Levantino, but as I said my english is very bad and I did't want shame myself :-X

First about Croatian/Serbian haplotype in FTDNA database. It's our Maksimović. He is from Velika Popina which is in today Croatia but he is ethnic Serb

Second, I belive that panel is best option. We still don't have clear picture about PF7263 part of the J1 tree. For me, basic differance is between those who have 24 on DYS390 and on those who have 25 on DYS390. All people who took BigY were DYS390=24 so we don't know where is the position of those have 25 on DYS390. Scheme up on the page is made on there results. If you father is DYS390-24 than we can place him somwhere in the tree, but if he is DYS390-25 he will probably be PF7263 like on the begining.

We have two popupations on Near east who are carriers of PF7263. One is Al Husseini from North Western Arabia, probably Hijas, and second is from eastern side of Fertile crescent, mstly Kurds, with some Azerbejanis and Turkmens. In thet population there is the biggest variation so I belive that are branch origin from that part of the world. Yavuz from Thesalonike have DYS390-25 what is caracteristic for that population so I belive that his origin is little different that our.

ZS10589 is caracteristic for some Arabian families, but also for same families with Jewish backround. I belive that this haplogroup (and that, in my oppinion include all ZS4407) belong aither to ancient Judeans, or some population between North-western Arabia and southern Izrael who latter become part of Jewish peole (my favorite theory is about Middanite- Kente hypothesis, but it's also possible from population of Edom etc)

There is one intheresting thought. Under PF7263 we have two branches, one is ZS4376 and other is Z28138. The latter is foun between Sardinians in scientific work. Unfortunatly, we don't have STR values so we don't know to whom they are closer. We don't know how they get there. They can be some Jewish group settled during roman time on island, but also could be some Phoenician group who survive roman, and all other conquests. Intherestin thing is, when I read about island Kythera where origin Venardos was thet the island was inhabit by the Phoenicians in ancient time. Just to remember, Venardos have DYS390-25

it's all for now. I must go to work. By by :)


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« Одговор #6 послато: Јул 03, 2018, 08:58:50 пре подне »
 
Hello Radon/Levantino! :-)

Pleased to meet you! Your English is perfect! You shouldn't hestitate at all!

Thank you for the clarification about Maksimovic.

From what I hear, I think that once I have the capital :-) we will go for the panel. So with this panel we will discover if he has DYS390=24 or 25, right? I am a real beginner and I am not sure I get everything, sorry. Will we also understand if he belongs to ZS10589?

Yes, Yavuz sounds like a Turkish name, at least to me. It is definitely not Greek though.

Let's see! It all sounds very interesting, to begin with!

Have a nice day at work!

Alexandra

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« Одговор #7 послато: Јул 03, 2018, 12:44:36 поподне »
Thank you again! Ok, then it does sound like a good solution... Do you know if ordering the more specific SNP's later could be very expensive? Because I would like to avoid going into very high expenses...Would one have the same or a more specific result with the option of the FTDNA y-37?

You shouldn't worry about high expenses, individual SNPs at Yseq cost $18, and you would probably have to order only one. As for FTDNA Y37, you would get exactly the same 37 STR markers, but at higher price.


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« Одговор #8 послато: Јул 03, 2018, 01:22:48 поподне »
Црна Гуја , thank you very much! Ok, I will go for it then. Dobar dan!

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« Одговор #9 послато: Јул 03, 2018, 07:15:51 поподне »
Цитат
So with this panel we will discover if he has DYS390=24 or 25, right?

Yes, that will do. In any case we will know more about possible possition in PF7263 brench

Thank you again! Ok, then it does sound like a good solution... Do you know if ordering the more specific SNP's later could be very expensive? Because I would like to avoid going into very high expenses...Would one have the same or a more specific result with the option of the FTDNA y-37?
Thank you very much for the correction as well! Wow, 30 is a big number, quite interesting! How can their presence in Serbia be explained?
Dobar dan!

I belive that our ancestors came during Roman empire, probably as soldierc, merchents or slaves and successfully survive until this day. During early middle ages, late XIII and early XIV century they exist as katun (small tribe) of Vlahović in the area of western Zachlumia in villages Poplat and Vlahovići

https://www.google.com/maps/place/%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%82,+%D0%91%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%B0+%D0%B8+%D0%A5%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%86%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0/@43.036891,18.0257744,12z/data=!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x134b7c7eae380925:0x32d761aa795f67c1!2z0KHRgtC-0LvQsNGGLCDQkdC-0YHQvdCwINC4INCl0LXRgNGG0LXQs9C-0LLQuNC90LA!3b1!8m2!3d43.0851515!4d17.9592754!3m4!1s0x134b7bf431439183:0x7ec304d2f80c96a5!8m2!3d43.031004!4d18.0183506

When Ottomans came, they became martologs (Armatoloi) and go further north and north-west, latter thay change side and fight on Venetian and Habsbourgh soldiers against Turks. They get land for their service and they started spreading there genes. Long story short :)

Good by! Doviđenja!

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« Одговор #10 послато: Јул 03, 2018, 09:40:21 поподне »
Wow, Radonic! What you wrote about the history of the subclade in Serbia is super interesting!  So were the merchants/slaves etc. of for example, Levantine or Phoenician origin?  Afterwards, during the Middle Ages did the Catun Vlahovic have anything to do with actual Vlachs too? Or there is no connection?
The other side of my family (maternal) come from the village Tserkovista (now Ekklisohori) in the area of Ioannina, Epirus. The village was a Vajunite settlement of the Middle Ages (earliest possible,  9th century). It had always belonged to a regional subdivision called Kourenta. Kurent(a) had been the surname of the Slavic Zupan owning or settling at the area. Most of the villages of Kourenta used to have names of Slavic origin like ours. I am writing all this to you, because one of these villages was called Vlachokatouno (Vlahokatuno). It was inhabited by Vlachs until the 17th century if I remember right. My very family must depict theoretically a continuation of this legacy like most of the locals. Of course, especially in my family we also have known Vlach and Arvanite roots.  According to historical sources the Slavic settlers of the area never left but settled for good, having sent away or annihilated most of the local male  population but often marrying to local women who had mostly survived the invasions. So through the centuries they gradually became assimilated culturally, genetically and linguistically.
There might still be some slight evidence of the Slavic legacy in the local dialect and pronounciation, I would think. Also some characteristic elements like the fact that the local surnames (esp. the female ones) would still sound very Slavic . As opposed to the official surnames the locals would refer to each other as follows: Kostayannova, Yannantonova etc. (These are actually the local unofficial surnames of my grandmother and great-grandmother). We also have the surname Detsikas pronounced Dečkas which made me think of dečko, now that I am trying to learn Serbian.
Anyways, I just mentioned this because the katun of  Vlahovic made me think of Vlahokatuno in our area. Nothing to do with my fathers family though 😉
« Последња измена: Јул 03, 2018, 09:46:22 поподне Alexandra_K »

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« Одговор #11 послато: Јул 03, 2018, 09:47:34 поподне »
As far as the panel is concerned, I think that I will order it once I can afford it.

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« Одговор #12 послато: Јул 03, 2018, 10:35:18 поподне »
Doviđenja!!  :)

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« Одговор #13 послато: Јул 04, 2018, 06:38:26 пре подне »
Wow, Radonic! What you wrote about the history of the subclade in Serbia is super interesting!  So were the merchants/slaves etc. of for example, Levantine or Phoenician origin?  Afterwards, during the Middle Ages did the Catun Vlahovic have anything to do with actual Vlachs too? Or there is no connection?

Well, it's my belief that they were soldiers, slaves or merchants :) This groups were most mobile and most numerous travelers in antiquity, so the best probability is that thay belong to some of that groups. We don't have any hard evidence about there existence before XIII century. About origin, my best option is Levantic heritage, most probably Jewish, but I don't exclude some other populations.

On the other side, we have confirmation about conection between J1 PF7263. They were vlachs (in Yugoslav historiography there is a difference between "vlachs" and "Vlachs". "Vlachs" with capitol are romanophonic population, and "vlachs" with small letter are slavicized population in vlach status, with easier contributions to there patrons and greater personal freedoms).
They also served as soldiers (Turks latter take them under there name "voynuk" wich means soldier) what was allways very regarded profession on Balkan. But in XIII century Vlahovićs were slavicized.

Цитат
The other side of my family (maternal) come from the village Tserkovista (now Ekklisohori) in the area of Ioannina, Epirus. The village was a Vajunite settlement of the Middle Ages (earliest possible,  9th century). It had always belonged to a regional subdivision called Kourenta. Kurent(a) had been the surname of the Slavic Zupan owning or settling at the area. Most of the villages of Kourenta used to have names of Slavic origin like ours. I am writing all this to you, because one of these villages was called Vlachokatouno (Vlahokatuno). It was inhabited by Vlachs until the 17th century if I remember right. My very family must depict theoretically a continuation of this legacy like most of the locals. Of course, especially in my family we also have known Vlach and Arvanite roots.  According to historical sources the Slavic settlers of the area never left but settled for good, having sent away or annihilated most of the local male  population but often marrying to local women who had mostly survived the invasions. So through the centuries they gradually became assimilated culturally, genetically and linguistically.
There might still be some slight evidence of the Slavic legacy in the local dialect and pronounciation, I would think. Also some characteristic elements like the fact that the local surnames (esp. the female ones) would still sound very Slavic . As opposed to the official surnames the locals would refer to each other as follows: Kostayannova, Yannantonova etc. (These are actually the local unofficial surnames of my grandmother and great-grandmother). We also have the surname Detsikas pronounced Dečkas which made me think of dečko, now that I am trying to learn Serbian.
Anyways, I just mentioned this because the katun of  Vlahovic made me think of Vlahokatuno in our area. Nothing to do with my fathers family though 😉

That's very intheresting. We were suprised about some slavic haplotypes in today province of Macedonia and Epir. On Balkan, we are all very mixed. Haplotypes close to our Vlahović group we found in anonymus participants of tasting in scientific papers about North Greece , Albania (Gheg population), southern and western Croatia and Slovenia
I know that meny people on this portal are intheresting about slavic heritage in today Epirus and Northern Greece

Pozdrav i svako dobro :)

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« Одговор #14 послато: Јул 04, 2018, 08:37:11 пре подне »
Dobro jutro!

Well, it's my belief that they were soldiers, slaves or merchants :) This groups were most mobile and most numerous travelers in antiquity, so the best probability is that thay belong to some of that groups. We don't have any hard evidence about there existence before XIII century. About origin, my best option is Levantic heritage, most probably Jewish, but I don't exclude some other populations.

Thank you!

On the other side, we have confirmation about conection between J1 PF7263. They were vlachs (in Yugoslav historiography there is a difference between "vlachs" and "Vlachs". "Vlachs" with capitol are romanophonic population, and "vlachs" with small letter are slavicized population in vlach status, with easier contributions to there patrons and greater personal freedoms).
They also served as soldiers (Turks latter take them under there name "voynuk" wich means soldier) what was allways very regarded profession on Balkan. But in XIII century Vlahovićs were slavicized.


Ok, interesting! In Greece Vlachs are like in Serbia the Aromuns who speak their roman-based language. However the term is used also as "vlach" to signify a "villager" in a negative sense (pretty stupid use of the word, as a real partial Vlach I never use it ;-P ).

Yes, I also find it very interesting too and that's why I have researched the Slavic heritage in our area quite a bit. My maternal cousins have not tested yet but I am planning to get one of them tested too, at some point :-). Although in their case, our Arvanite ancestry will probably show as far as the Y-haplogroup is concerned. Our oldest known patrilineal ancestor (unfortunately no documents but oral family tradition), has been Antonis Markou an (Arvanite) Souliot who fled to Tserkovista with his family around the beg. of the 19th century I would think (more or less). According to the family's oral tradition the Markou family belonged to the broader Botsari family and some unkle of my mother says that he keeps some of the Botsaris' weapons in his home as relics. That would be fun to see too, regarding their Y-haplogroup.
Other families of our village (where we are all more or less relatives, haha) might more direclty display a Slavic haplogroup (that is my guess) if no Arvanite or Vlach patrilineal ancestries are involved.
The phenotypes of the village's people are diverse, but one can see much more than on the Greek average, more Northern-like characteristics (skin-hair and eye color etc.). Of course, these can be attributed to many factors (Northern-type Greeks -???, Arvanite and Vlach admixture) but nevertheless, it is quite observable to a curious eye.
In the Balkans we are indeed all very mixed and in a way very close to each other genetically and culturally I would dare say (music, dance, folk poetry, folklore in general, temperament, food, after some point common history etc.). I personally feel my Balkan identity very strongly. Of course, I also embrace a lot my Mediterranean identity which is more connected to the islands my father comes from (Kephalonia and Kea). But, since I was a child, I was spending much more time with my maternal grandparents and was visiting our village every year on vacation so maybe I developed a much stronger emotional affinity to this identity. My heart beats in the Balkans, haha :-)

Pozdrav i svako dobro! ;-)
« Последња измена: Јул 04, 2018, 08:40:47 пре подне Alexandra_K »

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« Одговор #15 послато: Јул 04, 2018, 05:09:43 поподне »


Цитат
Ok, interesting! In Greece Vlachs are like in Serbia the Aromuns who speak their roman-based language. However the term is used also as "vlach" to signify a "villager" in a negative sense (pretty stupid use of the word, as a real partial Vlach I never use it ;-P ).

Intheresting. Vlach had very negative meaning in Croatia, where they use it for Serbian population

Цитат
Yes, I also find it very interesting too and that's why I have researched the Slavic heritage in our area quite a bit. My maternal cousins have not tested yet but I am planning to get one of them tested too, at some point :-). Although in their case, our Arvanite ancestry will probably show as far as the Y-haplogroup is concerned. Our oldest known patrilineal ancestor (unfortunately no documents but oral family tradition), has been Antonis Markou an (Arvanite) Souliot who fled to Tserkovista with his family around the beg. of the 19th century I would think (more or less). According to the family's oral tradition the Markou family belonged to the broader Botsari family and some unkle of my mother says that he keeps some of the Botsaris' weapons in his home as relics. That would be fun to see too, regarding their Y-haplogroup.
Other families of our village (where we are all more or less relatives, haha) might more direclty display a Slavic haplogroup (that is my guess) if no Arvanite or Vlach patrilineal ancestries are involved.
The phenotypes of the village's people are diverse, but one can see much more than on the Greek average, more Northern-like characteristics (skin-hair and eye color etc.). Of course, these can be attributed to many factors (Northern-type Greeks -???, Arvanite and Vlach admixture) but nevertheless, it is quite observable to a curious eye.
In the Balkans we are indeed all very mixed and in a way very close to each other genetically and culturally I would dare say (music, dance, folk poetry, folklore in general, temperament, food, after some point common history etc.). I personally feel my Balkan identity very strongly. Of course, I also embrace a lot my Mediterranean identity which is more connected to the islands my father comes from (Kephalonia and Kea). But, since I was a child, I was spending much more time with my maternal grandparents and was visiting our village every year on vacation so maybe I developed a much stronger emotional affinity to this identity. My heart beats in the Balkans, haha :-)

Pozdrav i svako dobro! ;-)

Well that is very intheresting. I read about Souliotes a little. Very heroic people. My friends are in Parga right now. I told them to visit Zalongo.
It will be very intheresting to know haplogroup of Botsaris. We, on Poreklo tried to find haplogroups of our Serbian heroes of First and Second rise agains Turks, 1804 and 1815.
There is one scientific paper about Y-chromosome variety in Albanian and Arbaresh population, and we were suprised how much slavic haplotypes were in south Albanian population. There is much job for genetic testing in Balkan in the future

Pozdrav

Ван мреже Alexandra_K

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« Одговор #16 послато: Јул 04, 2018, 05:49:58 поподне »
Ćao,

About Vlach in Croatian: I didn't know, that's not nice....

About the Botsaris family: I know we are related through oral tradition. I also have a DNA relative on AncestryDNA that belongs to a Botsaris family from America. This could be a possible proof. The confidence of the match is good and we are characterized as 5th-8th cousins which could be possible based on the family history. I have written to her but she hasn't answered since she has not logged in to her account for almost a year...:-( I hope to be able to contact her in the future.
I also found a relative with whom we are related through our Arvanitovlachi (Remeni) ancestry (Vlachs that were living in Albania, Kolonje, Dagli). If our guess is correct both families must have belonged to the same broader family which split and some part of it came down to Kourenta while others went to Montenegro and then to Slovenia.
The last interesting clue (of course it remains a hypothesis) is that my father must be also connected to some Arvanite ancestry. He has a lot of Albanian DNA relatives and also gets 5 dots like me at 23andme for Albania. One of his DNA relatives is a Shpati which made me think of the migration of some belonging to the Shpata Arvanite family to Kefalonia. Who knows, if they are connected in this way, it could be possible...

Pozdrav!
« Последња измена: Јул 04, 2018, 05:59:33 поподне Alexandra_K »

Ван мреже Alexandra_K

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« Одговор #17 послато: Јул 04, 2018, 08:24:44 поподне »
By the way Parga Is very beautiful!
Great of you to know about the Souliotes and Zalongo!

Ван мреже Be like Bill

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« Одговор #18 послато: Јул 04, 2018, 08:32:48 поподне »

I also found a relative with whom we are related through our Arvanitovlachi (Remeni) ancestry (Vlachs that were living in Albania, Kolonje, Dagli). If our guess is correct both families must have belonged to the same broader family which split and some part of it came down to Kourenta while others went to Montenegro and then to Slovenia.

Well this is very intheresting. Do you more about part who moved in Montenegro and Slovenia?
We have some surnames wich sound Greek to us, but we haven't have nobody to ask about them :). Does Macura, Mataruga and Krič (Krich) sound familiar to you and do they have some meaning on Greek?

Цитат
The last interesting clue (of course it remains a hypothesis) is that my father must be also connected to some Arvanite ancestry. He has a lot of Albanian DNA relatives and also gets 5 dots like me at 23andme for Albania. One of his DNA relatives is a Shpati which made me think of the migration of some belonging to the Shpata Arvanite family to Kefalonia. Who knows, if they are connected in this way, it could be possible...

Pozdrav!

That would be intheresting. Unfortunatly, I haven't saw many Arvanit haplotypes.

Pozdrav

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« Одговор #19 послато: Јул 04, 2018, 08:35:44 поподне »
By the way Parga Is very beautiful!
Great of you to know about the Souliotes and Zalongo!

Some things are not just local. Like the beauty and heroic history. Greece have both

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« Одговор #20 послато: Јул 04, 2018, 10:51:16 поподне »
Cao Radonic,

Some things are not just local. Like the beauty and heroic history. Greece have both

I was seriously moved to read this. Thank you. I really hope to learn more about Serbian history in the future (I am a little ignorant and I feel sorry for this) and to visit the country once soon! I can imagine it is also very beautiful!

Well this is very intheresting. Do you more about part who moved in Montenegro and Slovenia?
We have some surnames wich sound Greek to us, but we haven't have nobody to ask about them :). Does Macura, Mataruga and Krič (Krich) sound familiar to you and do they have some meaning on Greek?


No, I don't know much about them yet. But I could ask some more information to my newly discovered relative. Their surname sounds Yugoslavian though.
We have the surname Masouras in Greece (from masouri: a sort of knot made of thread where they used to keep their money in, in the past, word of Turkish origin). Also the surname Mataragas with an "A". This must be an Arvanite surname coming from the name of an Albanian feudarch as I read. There are also a few villages/towns all over Greece, called Mataraga or names derived from it. Lastly, there is the surname Kritsis (coming mainly from Thessaloniki it seems). So, yes theoretically there might be some connection.

That would be intheresting. Unfortunatly, I haven't saw many Arvanit haplotypes.

I imagine that one would have to look at the dominant Albanian haplotypes, right? And if there is such a division, especially at the Tosk ones, since the Arvanites are said to have been Tosks.

Pozdrav!

P.S: I will try to start another thread on the Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina (I seem to have many questions about this issue too ;-) )
« Последња измена: Јул 04, 2018, 10:53:56 поподне Alexandra_K »

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« Одговор #21 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 07:29:41 пре подне »
Thank you Alexandra. You really done fantastic job. I hope that some thins are more clear now

Pozdrav

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« Одговор #22 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 07:57:18 пре подне »
Thank you, too, Radonic!!! Yes, many things are much clearer now! Hvala!

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« Одговор #23 послато: Јул 07, 2018, 09:45:12 пре подне »
Just a silly question more for fun...(I can imagine that linking haplogroups to phenotypes can be often very arbitrary and not so scientific but.. ) how do you fellow Serbian PF7263 people look? Does any of you have  any more Southern or even more Eastern features? I know it is a bit of a silly question taking into account the huge amount of admixture we all have and the fact that the haplogroup characterizes a very small part of our overall genetic ancestry. But for example my father, when he was younger used to have dark brown hair,  has rather light skin, brown eyes, is long faced with very strong cheekbones and prominent features (large eyes, nose, mouth). Just out of curiosity, if you feel like answering, how do you look? :D

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« Одговор #24 послато: Јул 07, 2018, 11:40:06 пре подне »
Some famous Serbian singers belongs to J1-PF7263, such as Goran Šepa and Zdravko Čolić, so, this is maybe response for your question ''how do you fellow Serbian PF7263 people look?''. Greets from BMK. ;)
« Последња измена: Јул 07, 2018, 11:44:33 пре подне Atlantische »
''Заведени светским чудима, заборависмо на себе и на своје порекло." - М. Капор

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« Одговор #25 послато: Јул 07, 2018, 11:58:59 пре подне »
Hello BMK my friend! :-) Thank you for the images! Funny to have even famous people in the PF 7263 group :-) So among the 20 known Serbian cases (at least) 2 of them are famous?...not bad! :) Well there is something about them physically, no? Or are they very typical Serbians for that matter? (I can't say I am an expert at "Serbian phenotypes").

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« Одговор #26 послато: Јул 07, 2018, 01:06:45 поподне »
My father looks a lot like Goran Šepa but without all that hair  :)

I don't know what to say. We are fitting in serbian average (we have big and small, blond and dark, all types and shapes).

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« Одговор #27 послато: Јул 07, 2018, 01:11:57 поподне »
Hello Radonic,
Hehe...without all that hair... LOL :-D My father used to look a bit like Richard Gere earlier, but then a more Mediterranean version ;-)...
Yes, I guess he too fits in the Greek average in a way, maybe just my need to feel more exotic, haha...:-P

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« Одговор #28 послато: Јул 09, 2018, 06:47:06 поподне »
My father looks a lot like Goran Šepa but without all that hair  :)

He didn't smoke weed when he was young guy :D

Ван мреже Alexandra_K

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« Одговор #29 послато: Јул 09, 2018, 07:09:08 поподне »
Haha! Thank God! ;-)

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« Одговор #30 послато: Јул 28, 2018, 07:59:46 поподне »
Hello guys! Just wanted to tell you that I ordered the Alpha Beta panel today :-) I am looking forward to finding out more about my dad's haplogroup! I will definitely let you know of the results.
Doviđenja!

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« Одговор #31 послато: Јул 29, 2018, 07:33:03 пре подне »
Hello guys! Just wanted to tell you that I ordered the Alpha Beta panel today :-) I am looking forward to finding out more about my dad's haplogroup! I will definitely let you know of the results.
Doviđenja!

Exellent news. Thank you Alexandra.  :)

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« Одговор #32 послато: Јул 29, 2018, 07:50:31 пре подне »
You are welcome! :-)

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« Одговор #33 послато: Август 15, 2018, 11:00:52 поподне »
Guys, I signed in in my dad's yseq account a bit earlier, although I haven't received any email from them yet about the results being ready, and I saw the following. Is this already part of his results? Sorry, I am just completely ignorant on this level.


My Allele Results
SampleID   Ordered   Marker+   Chr   Start   End   Allele
15974   2018-07-28   CDY   ChrY   26152021   26152296   31-37
15974   free   DYS442   ChrY   14761064   14761368   14
15974   free   DYS448   ChrY   24365000   24365293   20
15974   free   DYS449   ChrY   8217908   8218262   28
15974   free   DYS454   ChrY   8224083   8224282   11
15974   free   DYS455   ChrY   6911459   6911638   11
15974   free   DYS456   ChrY   4270942   4271090   15
15974   free   DYS458   ChrY   7867839   7867961   18.2
15974   free   DYS459   ChrY   26078790   26078941   8-9
15974   free   DYS460   ChrY   21050798   21050966   11
15974   free   DYS570   ChrY   6861115   6861370   18
15974   free   DYS576   ChrY   7053302   7053492   17
15974   2018-07-28   DYS607   ChrY   18414306   18414498   14
15974   free   DYS724   ChrY   26152021   26152296   31-37
Back

Ван мреже Be like Bill

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« Одговор #34 послато: Август 16, 2018, 07:49:45 пре подне »
Guys, I signed in in my dad's yseq account a bit earlier, although I haven't received any email from them yet about the results being ready, and I saw the following. Is this already part of his results? Sorry, I am just completely ignorant on this level.


My Allele Results
SampleID   Ordered   Marker+   Chr   Start   End   Allele
15974   2018-07-28   CDY   ChrY   26152021   26152296   31-37
15974   free   DYS442   ChrY   14761064   14761368   14
15974   free   DYS448   ChrY   24365000   24365293   20
15974   free   DYS449   ChrY   8217908   8218262   28
15974   free   DYS454   ChrY   8224083   8224282   11
15974   free   DYS455   ChrY   6911459   6911638   11
15974   free   DYS456   ChrY   4270942   4271090   15
15974   free   DYS458   ChrY   7867839   7867961   18.2
15974   free   DYS459   ChrY   26078790   26078941   8-9
15974   free   DYS460   ChrY   21050798   21050966   11
15974   free   DYS570   ChrY   6861115   6861370   18
15974   free   DYS576   ChrY   7053302   7053492   17
15974   2018-07-28   DYS607   ChrY   18414306   18414498   14
15974   free   DYS724   ChrY   26152021   26152296   31-37
Back

Hello Alexandra :)

Yes, this is part of panel. Although most important markers missing, we can say few things. Most probably you are not close to Venardos. He have DYS448- 21 while you have 20 (which is common in our branch). You also have value 14 on DYS607 so you most probably not belong to branches ZS10589 cluster A3 and A4 which are most numerous, they have value 13 on this place. For now you look close to Maragoudakis even you have 28 on DYS449 and he have 31. I'm not sure about variability of that marker in our group but I belive it's not of great importance. It's intheresting that you have value 11 on DYS460 while almost all others have value 10 on that marker. For some deeper conclusions lets wait other markers

If anybody else have some ideas please join the conversation. Kor, I count on you ;)

Goodbye and all well

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« Одговор #35 послато: Август 16, 2018, 10:40:33 пре подне »
Hello radon 😃
Thank you! Interesting, I am curious to find out more now! Let's see....;-)
I recently read this thing that I wrote here too, namely that the Venetians who ruled Kephalonia for close to 300 years had placed people from the region of Venice (Roman Catholics) there because it was underpopulated, but also people (Greek Orthodox) from their conquests (Stato da Mar: incl. Crete, Evia, Cyclades and even Cyprus). Maragoudakis comes from Crete, that's why I thought of this. And in general there must have been movement between the two islands.
But let's wait for the complete results! ;-)
Many greetings from cloudy and cool Tserkovista! ! ;-)

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« Одговор #36 послато: Август 16, 2018, 02:45:40 поподне »
Yes, this are all possibilities, but I belive that you are some independent ZS4376. I would guess your possible haplotype. There are some J1 PF7326 on east coast of Sicilia in Ragusa/Siracusa. There values vere:

393-390-19-391-385ab-426-388-439-389I-392-389II-458-437-448-GATAH4-456-438-635
12 - 24 - 13 -10 - 12/17 -10- 15 - 12 - 12 - 11 - 29 -18.2 (19.2)- 14- 20 -10 - 15 -10 - 21

It's from scientific paper "Uniparental markers in Italy reveal a sex-biased genetic structure and different historical strata" from Boattini et al

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0065441#s6

This is a table vith STR values

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0065441.s013&type=supplementary

Siracusa samples are under numbers 791 and 799. There is also cousain from Agrigento under number 676. They are all Sicilians 8). I totaly forgot them

I think your haplotype could be close to them

Greetings from hot and sunny (to hot and sunny ) Belgrade :)

Ван мреже Alexandra_K

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« Одговор #37 послато: Август 16, 2018, 03:13:42 поподне »
Aha! Interesting!  8) Yes, this too could be possible! Thank you for letting me know :)
It even started raining now   :-\ Let's book a flight to Belgrade  ;)

Ван мреже Alexandra_K

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« Одговор #38 послато: Август 16, 2018, 04:03:04 поподне »
Oops! Some new stuff added!

SampleID   Ordered   Marker+   Chr   Start   End   Allele
15974   2018-07-28   CDY   ChrY   26152021   26152296   31-37
15974   free   DYS19   ChrY   9521934   9522128   14
15974   free   DYS385   ChrY   20801456   20801824   12-18
15974   free   DYS388   ChrY   14747462   14747617   15
15974   free   DYS389I   ChrY   14612070   14612316   12
15974   free   DYS389II   ChrY   14612070   14612316   29
15974   2018-07-28   DYS390   ChrY   17274874   17275219   24
15974   free   DYS391   ChrY   14102758   14103044   10
15974   free   DYS392   ChrY   22633758   22634011   11
15974   free   DYS393   ChrY   3131128   3131246   12
15974   free   DYS426   ChrY   19134813   19134909   10
15974   free   DYS437   ChrY   14466964   14467155   14
15974   free   DYS438   ChrY   14937795   14938015   10
15974   free   DYS439   ChrY   14515159   14515410   12
15974   free   DYS442   ChrY   14761064   14761368   14
15974   free   DYS447   ChrY   15278692   15278902   24
15974   free   DYS448   ChrY   24365000   24365293   20
15974   free   DYS449   ChrY   8217908   8218262   28
15974   free   DYS454   ChrY   8224083   8224282   11
15974   free   DYS455   ChrY   6911459   6911638   11
15974   free   DYS456   ChrY   4270942   4271090   15
15974   free   DYS458   ChrY   7867839   7867961   18.2
15974   free   DYS459   ChrY   26078790   26078941   8-9
15974   free   DYS460   ChrY   21050798   21050966   11
15974   free   DYS570   ChrY   6861115   6861370   18
15974   free   DYS576   ChrY   7053302   7053492   17
15974   2018-07-28   DYS607   ChrY   18414306   18414498   14
15974   free   DYS724   ChrY   26152021   26152296   31-37
15974   free   Y-GATA-H4   ChrY   18743384   18743751   10
15974   free   YCAII   ChrY   19622083   19622240   19-22
Back

My STR Results

YSEQ ID 15974
FTDNA Format:
FTDNA PANEL 1 (1-12)
Marker   DYS393   DYS390   DYS19   DYS391   DYS385   DYS426   DYS388   DYS439   DYS389I   DYS392   DYS389II
Value   12   24   14   10   12-18   10   15   12   12   11   29
FTDNA PANEL 2 (13-25)
Marker   DYS458   DYS459   DYS455   DYS454   DYS447   DYS437   DYS448   DYS449   DYS464
Value   18.2   8-9   11   11   24   14   20   28   
FTDNA PANEL 3 (26-37)
Marker   DYS460   Y-GATA-H4   YCAII   DYS456   DYS607   DYS576   DYS570   CDY   DYS442   DYS438
Value   11   9   19-22   15   14   17   18   31-37   14   10
FTDNA PANEL 4 (38-47)

Ван мреже Kor

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« Одговор #39 послато: Август 17, 2018, 07:24:29 поподне »
Here it is ;)


Ван мреже Kor

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« Одговор #40 послато: Август 17, 2018, 07:26:38 поподне »
Honestly, I am not sure about subgroup where this haplotype belongs

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-M267/default.aspx?section=yresults


Ван мреже Alexandra_K

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« Одговор #41 послато: Август 17, 2018, 08:25:18 поподне »
Thank you, Kor! It seems to be a little more complicated than expected, as I understand? I ordered the test of PF-7264 as they suggested. It costed 15 Euro so I thought, what the heck, I'll get this too  ;) Let's see if it will be enough to get the whole picture...

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« Одговор #42 послато: Август 18, 2018, 03:38:58 поподне »
I am really confused about this situation and even don't know what to say or what to suggest :D Radon says that your dad belongs to P56 but our predictor says that he belongs to PF7263. As you can see in FTDNA table, it is a little bit difficult to sort his haplotype in some of previously defined categories. Don't forget that patience is important thing in this kind of sports. 

Ван мреже Alexandra_K

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« Одговор #43 послато: Август 18, 2018, 08:33:16 поподне »
Hehe, thank you Kor! What a mystery... 8) Yes, I will try to be patient  :D Let's see......

Ван мреже Be like Bill

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« Одговор #44 послато: Август 18, 2018, 10:17:43 поподне »
Hehe, thank you Kor! What a mystery... 8) Yes, I will try to be patient  :D Let's see......

Go girl. Just patient.  ;)

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« Одговор #45 послато: Август 18, 2018, 10:28:19 поподне »
 ;) ;) :D

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« Одговор #46 послато: Август 21, 2018, 07:29:50 поподне »
Hello, my friends!
We got the results:

Quick results summary:
PF7264 G+

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My Allele Results
SampleID   Ordered   Marker+   Chr   Start   End   Allele
15974   free   BY19824   ChrY   7974015   7974015   T-
15974   free   BY33115   ChrY   7974112   7974112   T-
15974   free   BY34137   ChrY   7974062   7974062   C-
15974   free   BY38610   ChrY   7974240   7974240   G-
15974   free   BY49877   ChrY   7973963   7973963   G-
15974   free   BY68129   ChrY   7973848   7973848   T-
15974   free   BY68130   ChrY   7973892   7973892   A-
15974   free   BY68131   ChrY   7973893   7973893   T-
15974   free   BY68132   ChrY   7973975   7973975   G-
15974   free   BY68133   ChrY   7974220   7974220   C-
15974   free   BY157464   ChrY   7974210   7974210   A-
15974   free   BY164664   ChrY   7974092   7974092   A-
15974   2018-07-28   CDY   ChrY   26152021   26152296   31-37
15974   free   CDY   ChrY   26152021   26152296   31-37
15974   free   DYS19   ChrY   9521934   9522128   14
15974   free   DYS385   ChrY   20801456   20801824   12-18
15974   free   DYS388   ChrY   14747462   14747617   15
15974   free   DYS389I   ChrY   14612070   14612316   12
15974   free   DYS389II   ChrY   14612070   14612316   29
15974   2018-07-28   DYS390   ChrY   17274874   17275219   24
15974   free   DYS390   ChrY   17274874   17275219   24
15974   free   DYS391   ChrY   14102758   14103044   10
15974   free   DYS392   ChrY   22633758   22634011   11
15974   free   DYS393   ChrY   3131128   3131246   12
15974   free   DYS426   ChrY   19134813   19134909   10
15974   free   DYS437   ChrY   14466964   14467155   14
15974   free   DYS438   ChrY   14937795   14938015   10
15974   free   DYS439   ChrY   14515159   14515410   12
15974   free   DYS442   ChrY   14761064   14761368   14
15974   free   DYS447   ChrY   15278692   15278902   24
15974   free   DYS448   ChrY   24365000   24365293   20
15974   free   DYS449   ChrY   8217908   8218262   28
15974   free   DYS454   ChrY   8224083   8224282   11
15974   free   DYS455   ChrY   6911459   6911638   11
15974   free   DYS456   ChrY   4270942   4271090   15
15974   free   DYS458   ChrY   7867839   7867961   18.2
15974   free   DYS459   ChrY   26078790   26078941   8-9
15974   free   DYS460   ChrY   21050798   21050966   11
15974   free   DYS570   ChrY   6861115   6861370   18
15974   free   DYS576   ChrY   7053302   7053492   17
15974   2018-07-28   DYS607   ChrY   18414306   18414498   14
15974   free   DYS607   ChrY   18414306   18414498   14
15974   free   DYS724   ChrY   26152021   26152296   31-37
15974   free   FGC21497   ChrY   7973929   7973929   T-
15974   free   FGC43287   ChrY   7974122   7974122   G-
15974   free   FGC51007   ChrY   7974279   7974279   C-
15974   free   M7176   ChrY   7974006   7974006   T-
15974   free   M12139   ChrY   7973998   7973998   C-
15974   free   MF3146   ChrY   7974238   7974238   G-
15974   free   MF14465   ChrY   7974011   7974011   A-
15974   free   PF7264   ChrY   7974038   7974038   G+
15974   2018-08-16   PF7264   ChrY   7974038   7974038   G+
15974   free   Y-GATA-H4   ChrY   18743384   18743751   10
15974   free   Y39163   ChrY   7974062   7974062   C-
15974   free   Y46493   ChrY   7973974   7973974   G-
15974   free   Y46494   ChrY   7974023   7974023   G-
15974   free   Y46495   ChrY   7974262   7974262   T-
15974   free   Y85133   ChrY   7973931   7973931   T-
15974   free   Y85134   ChrY   7974112   7974112   T-
15974   free   Y147346   ChrY   7974067   7974067   G-
15974   free   YCAII   ChrY   19622083   19622240   19-22
15974   free   Z33972   ChrY   7973903   7973903   A-
15974   free   Z34748   ChrY   7973844   7973844   C-
15974   free   Z36725   ChrY   7974203   7974203   G-
15974   free   ZS8356   ChrY   7973991   7973991   C-
15974   free   ZS9802   ChrY   7973890   

Sorry, I am confused...:-) Does this mean he still can be PF7263 as everyone thought or is PF7263 already excluded?
Hvala!

Ван мреже Be like Bill

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« Одговор #47 послато: Август 21, 2018, 07:57:56 поподне »
Theoretically yes. Maybe value 14 on DYS19 is some private mutation, and you are PF7263+, and 14 is false flage for P56. You should check P56 or Pf7263 on Yseq. You could also be PF7264* which mean that you don't have close relative for last 10 000 years.  :) But at least we are sure that you are pozitive on PF7264.

By ;)

Ван мреже Alexandra_K

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« Одговор #48 послато: Август 21, 2018, 08:58:43 поподне »
Hello Radon! :-)
Do you mean that we should test P56 or PF7263 just as we did with PF7264, in order to know more?
Being without any close relative for the last 10,000 years would feel awfully lonely...  :( :D
Bye bye and thank you!   ;)

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« Одговор #49 послато: Август 21, 2018, 09:06:01 поподне »
I just checked and both P56 and PF7263 cost 18 euros each. Would one have to test one of them only? So, if for example one would be found to be P56 negative that would immediately mean that he is PF7263, and the opposite (if found to be PF7263 negative that would immediately mean that he is P56)?

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« Одговор #50 послато: Август 21, 2018, 09:25:50 поподне »
I just checked and both P56 and PF7263 cost 18 euros each. Would one have to test one of them only? So, if for example one would be found to be P56 negative that would immediately mean that he is PF7263, and the opposite (if found to be PF7263 negative that would immediately mean that he is P56)?

I should first suggest P56. I still belive that I was right. If you are not P56 you should test PF7263 just to exclude option that you are PF7264*

Ван мреже Alexandra_K

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« Одговор #51 послато: Август 21, 2018, 09:35:45 поподне »
Ok! Thank you for your suggestion! Laku noć!

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« Одговор #52 послато: Август 23, 2018, 09:31:50 поподне »
I'd prefer to test PF7263 because of predictor which gave much more chance to them than to P56

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« Одговор #53 послато: Август 24, 2018, 09:47:32 пре подне »
Thank you, too Kor! I already ordered P56 :) But if it comes out negative, I will have to test PF7263 too. Expensive hobby  :P Dobar dan!

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« Одговор #54 послато: Август 24, 2018, 11:09:32 пре подне »
Thank you, too Kor! I already ordered P56 :) But if it comes out negative, I will have to test PF7263 too. Expensive hobby  :P Dobar dan!

Yes it is! ;D

Dobar dan i tebi!- Good day to you too!

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« Одговор #55 послато: Август 24, 2018, 11:28:16 пре подне »
I'd prefer to test PF7263 because of predictor which gave much more chance to them than to P56

Well, we can take a bet!

As I told, biggest reason for me that Alexandra's father is P56 is value on DYS19-14 whic is caracteristic for P56. I know that we have some unusal resoults where we have possible PF7263, but with not 13 on DYS19 (like in one sample that Zor found, sample had 12 on DYS19)

https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=833.msg59154#msg59154

But let be patient and see. In the meanwhile what are we betting for? ;)

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« Одговор #56 послато: Август 24, 2018, 12:12:18 поподне »
Interesting case, Radon, thank you.
I have no clue, guys, so I let you do the betting, haha... :D

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« Одговор #57 послато: Август 28, 2018, 09:01:50 поподне »
Hello! :)
So.......quick results: P56 A-  ???


My Allele Results
SampleID   Ordered   Marker+   Chr   Start   End   Allele
15974   free   A13083   ChrY   12366740   12366740   G-
15974   free   BY19824   ChrY   7974015   7974015   T-
15974   free   BY33115   ChrY   7974112   7974112   T-
15974   free   BY34137   ChrY   7974062   7974062   C-
15974   free   BY38610   ChrY   7974240   7974240   G-
15974   free   BY49877   ChrY   7973963   7973963   G-
15974   free   BY68129   ChrY   7973848   7973848   T-
15974   free   BY68130   ChrY   7973892   7973892   A-
15974   free   BY68131   ChrY   7973893   7973893   T-
15974   free   BY68132   ChrY   7973975   7973975   G-
15974   free   BY68133   ChrY   7974220   7974220   C-
15974   free   BY96069   ChrY   12366538   12366538   T-
15974   free   BY96070   ChrY   12366611   12366611   T-
15974   free   BY96071   ChrY   12366652   12366652   A-
15974   free   BY96072   ChrY   12366775   12366775   G-
15974   free   BY157464   ChrY   7974210   7974210   A-
15974   free   BY164664   ChrY   7974092   7974092   A-
15974   free   BZ2126   ChrY   12366502   12366502   T-
15974   2018-07-28   CDY   ChrY   26152021   26152296   31-37
15974   free   CDY   ChrY   26152021   26152296   31-37
15974   free   CTS2793   ChrY   12366521   12366521   G-
15974   free   DYF399X   ChrY   25096369   25096670   21t-25c-25.1t
15974   free   DYS19   ChrY   9521934   9522128   14
15974   free   DYS385   ChrY   20801456   20801824   12-18
15974   free   DYS388   ChrY   14747462   14747617   15
15974   free   DYS389I   ChrY   14612070   14612316   12
15974   free   DYS389II   ChrY   14612070   14612316   29
15974   2018-07-28   DYS390   ChrY   17274874   17275219   24
15974   free   DYS390   ChrY   17274874   17275219   24
15974   free   DYS391   ChrY   14102758   14103044   10
15974   free   DYS392   ChrY   22633758   22634011   11
15974   free   DYS393   ChrY   3131128   3131246   12
15974   free   DYS426   ChrY   19134813   19134909   10
15974   free   DYS437   ChrY   14466964   14467155   14
15974   free   DYS438   ChrY   14937795   14938015   10
15974   free   DYS439   ChrY   14515159   14515410   12
15974   free   DYS442   ChrY   14761064   14761368   14
15974   free   DYS447   ChrY   15278692   15278902   24
15974   free   DYS448   ChrY   24365000   24365293   20
15974   free   DYS449   ChrY   8217908   8218262   28
15974   free   DYS454   ChrY   8224083   8224282   11
15974   free   DYS455   ChrY   6911459   6911638   11
15974   free   DYS456   ChrY   4270942   4271090   15
15974   free   DYS458   ChrY   7867839   7867961   18.2
15974   free   DYS459   ChrY   26078790   26078941   8-9
15974   free   DYS460   ChrY   21050798   21050966   11
15974   2018-07-28   DYS464X   ChrY   25240822   25241096   14g-14g-15g-16g
15974   free   DYS464X   ChrY   25240822   25241096   14g-14g-15g-16g
15974   free   DYS570   ChrY   6861115   6861370   18
15974   free   DYS576   ChrY   7053302   7053492   17
15974   2018-07-28   DYS607   ChrY   18414306   18414498   14
15974   free   DYS607   ChrY   18414306   18414498   14
15974   free   DYS724   ChrY   26152021   26152296   31-37
15974   free   FGC21497   ChrY   7973929   7973929   T-
15974   free   FGC43287   ChrY   7974122   7974122   G-
15974   free   FGC51007   ChrY   7974279   7974279   C-
15974   free   FGC68859   ChrY   12366388   12366388   T-
15974   free   L233   ChrY   12366631   12366631   G-
15974   free   L1381   ChrY   12366412   12366412   T-
15974   free   M7176   ChrY   7974006   7974006   T-
15974   free   M12139   ChrY   7973998   7973998   C-
15974   free   MF3146   ChrY   7974238   7974238   G-
15974   free   MF14465   ChrY   7974011   7974011   A-
15974   free   MF15061   ChrY   12366452   12366452   A-
15974   free   P56   ChrY   12366607   12366607   A-
15974   2018-08-21   P56   ChrY   12366607   12366607   A-
15974   free   PF7264   ChrY   7974038   7974038   G+
15974   2018-08-16   PF7264   ChrY   7974038   7974038   G+
15974   free   S183   ChrY   12366631   12366631   G-
15974   free   Y-GATA-H4   ChrY   18743384   18743751   10
15974   free   Y32071   ChrY   12366580   12366580   T-
15974   free   Y39163   ChrY   7974062   7974062   C-
15974   free   Y46493   ChrY   7973974   7973974   G-
15974   free   Y46494   ChrY   7974023   7974023   G-
15974   free   Y46495   ChrY   7974262   7974262   T-
15974   free   Y49593   ChrY   12366527   12366527   G-
15974   free   Y85133   ChrY   7973931   7973931   T-
15974   free   Y85134   ChrY   7974112   7974112   T-
15974   free   Y136003   ChrY   12366537   12366537   G-
15974   free   Y147346   ChrY   7974067   7974067   G-
15974   free   YCAII   ChrY   19622083   19622240   19-22
15974   free   Z33972   ChrY   7973903   7973903   A-
15974   free   Z34748   ChrY   7973844   7973844   C-
15974   free   Z36725   ChrY   7974203   7974203   G-
15974   free   ZS8356   ChrY   7973991   7973991   C-
15974   free   ZS9802   ChrY   7973890   7973890   G-

Ван мреже Alexandra_K

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« Одговор #58 послато: Август 28, 2018, 09:03:45 поподне »
So...what are we?? Aliens?? LOL

Jelic

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« Одговор #59 послато: Август 28, 2018, 09:11:24 поподне »
You should order PF7263 now.

Ван мреже Alexandra_K

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« Одговор #60 послато: Август 28, 2018, 10:36:48 поподне »
Hello лука, 😃
Thank you, yes I was not 100% sure but I thought so. I was not complrtely sure of how to interpret the A-. In fact I am learning these things a little mechanically without knowing what they actually mean.
So now, if I am not mistaken, the options are two: or being some rare or "new" subclade (?) of PF6263 or being just PF6264 (this very ancient type  :P)
I think I am going to order it now. I have become increasingly curious.
Talk to you soon again!

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« Одговор #61 послато: Август 29, 2018, 06:57:36 пре подне »
I'll be damn :)

I was almost shure that you are P56. Probably DYS19- 14 is one personal mutation, caracteristic for your line. About other things you are probably PF7263. You can order that SNP just in case, but you can order some marker down of it. Here is the schema of Viktar tree:



In your place, I would order ZS4407 (but in latest FTDNA J1 table this SNP is named as ZS4452, so you should probably find it under this name), and, if you are positive on it, ZS10589.
If somebody else have something to add, please do

By Alexandra :)

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« Одговор #62 послато: Август 29, 2018, 10:08:09 пре подне »
Or maybe even test SNPs backward. First take ZS10589, then if you aren't so take ZS4407/ZS4452, if you aren't this take ZS4376. This coul be cheaper, expecially if we hit first SNP correct.

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« Одговор #63 послато: Август 29, 2018, 02:02:17 поподне »
Hello Radon!
No problem, we had to guess anyways between the two! :-) You are very helpful and alone I would feel completely lost in this research.
Interesting, this part about the mutation which is probably characteristic of our line.
Unfortunately, out of my zeal, I already ordered the PF7263 which will then most probably come out positive, right? But then again, I guess we still won't know where we stand exactly...Right? These SNP's you mention require that one is already PF7263 positive?
Is it true that he might as well be just PF7264 or is this close to impossible?
I just got an update of the results of our first test with all of the STRs included (one was still processing):

CDY 31-37
CTS2793 G-
DYF399X 21t-25c-25.1t
DYS19 14
DYS385 12-18
DYS388 15
DYS389I 12
DYS389II 29
DYS390 24
DYS391 10
DYS392 11
DYS393 12
DYS426 10
DYS437 14
DYS438 10
DYS439 12
DYS442 14
DYS447 24
DYS448 20
DYS449 28
DYS454 11
DYS455 11
DYS456 15
DYS458 18.2
DYS459 8-9
DYS460 11
DYS464 14-14-15-16
DYS464X 14g-14g-15g-16g
DYS570 18
DYS576 17
DYS607 14
DYS724 31-37
Y-GATA-H4 10
YCAII 19-22

Doviđenja!!

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« Одговор #64 послато: Август 29, 2018, 05:45:51 поподне »
Temporarily, I don't belive that you are PF7263 negative and just PF7264 positive. As you said, at least we'll be shure about PF7263.
About other SNPs that I mention, they all are under PF7263. In Viktar's tree we have BAM files of seven people, and this is solid for some general picture about our brench. Unfortunatly, we don't have enough informations to upgrade structure in C.E.

I don't know if you see FTDNA table of J1 Y-DNA project. Our group is on page 8 (you must scroll to the end) under number 176. We have 52 participants (J1 project have 5509 iin this day) which mean that we make less then 1% of all J1 project :)

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-M267?iframe=yresults




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« Одговор #65 послато: Август 29, 2018, 06:35:33 поподне »
Yes, I understand that it's not simple at all...:-) I am trying to follow the technical details that you mention but I don't get them 100%. I think that I will become more accustomed in the future.
However, we already know that my dad is most probably PF7263, that he is not related to the Serbian Cluster or Clusters (?) plus that he is not related to Maragoudakis nor Venardos, right? Or are those not completely clear yet?
Yes, at least we will now get a verification of PF7263 or not, as you say.
I will keep youvposted of course and we'll see what our next step could be...I would like to find out if he belongs to an already defined cluster or not. ???
Talk to you soon!

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« Одговор #66 послато: Август 29, 2018, 06:48:08 поподне »
Yes, I did find your cluster now and could also see Venardos and Maragoudakis. We'll wait and see :-)

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« Одговор #67 послато: Август 30, 2018, 05:30:31 поподне »
So...what are we?? Aliens?? LOL

It seems... just a branch of PF7263 aliens :D
A rather unusual result for this haplogroup. It should be a new branch of it.

Radon should pay this for you because he suggested you to test P56, not PF7263. ;)

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« Одговор #68 послато: Август 30, 2018, 07:00:18 поподне »
It seems... just a branch of PF7263 aliens :D
A rather unusual result for this haplogroup. It should be a new branch of it.

Radon should pay this for you because he suggested you to test P56, not PF7263. ;)

Ok. I have nice old hat and I spot some fine place on the street. I guess it wont take long to earn that money ;)

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« Одговор #69 послато: Август 30, 2018, 10:05:53 поподне »
Hehe!!!  ;D  8)  ;)

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« Одговор #70 послато: Август 30, 2018, 10:07:58 поподне »
Radon, are you a good singer?  ;)

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« Одговор #71 послато: Август 30, 2018, 10:37:11 поподне »
Radon, are you a good singer?  ;)

Well, my plan was more something like this:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/3sqhZScxVG8" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/3sqhZScxVG8</a>

  ;)

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« Одговор #72 послато: Август 30, 2018, 10:44:18 поподне »
 Haha...;D I cannot miss such a performance... ;)

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« Одговор #73 послато: Септембар 01, 2018, 03:20:53 поподне »
Ćao! :-)

They were quicker this time!:


Quick results summary:

PF7263 T+


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« Одговор #74 послато: Септембар 01, 2018, 03:23:18 поподне »
My Allele Results

SampleID   Ordered   Marker+   Chr   Start   End   Allele
15974   free   A13083   ChrY   12366740   12366740   G-
15974   free   BY14478   ChrY   20701326   20701326   C-
15974   free   BY19824   ChrY   7974015   7974015   T-
15974   free   BY33115   ChrY   7974112   7974112   T-
15974   free   BY34137   ChrY   7974062   7974062   C-
15974   free   BY38610   ChrY   7974240   7974240   G-
15974   free   BY49877   ChrY   7973963   7973963   G-
15974   free   BY51458   ChrY   20701472   20701472   G-
15974   free   BY68129   ChrY   7973848   7973848   T-
15974   free   BY68130   ChrY   7973892   7973892   A-
15974   free   BY68131   ChrY   7973893   7973893   T-
15974   free   BY68132   ChrY   7973975   7973975   G-
15974   free   BY68133   ChrY   7974220   7974220   C-
15974   free   BY96069   ChrY   12366538   12366538   T-
15974   free   BY96070   ChrY   12366611   12366611   T-
15974   free   BY96071   ChrY   12366652   12366652   A-
15974   free   BY96072   ChrY   12366775   12366775   G-
15974   free   BY141320   ChrY   20701291   20701291   A-
15974   free   BY141321   ChrY   20701321   20701321   C-
15974   free   BY141322   ChrY   20701354   20701354   A-
15974   free   BY141323   ChrY   20701447   20701447   C-
15974   free   BY141324   ChrY   20701475   20701475   T-
15974   free   BY141325   ChrY   20701522   20701522   G-
15974   free   BY141326   ChrY   20701524   20701524   C-
15974   free   BY157464   ChrY   7974210   7974210   A-
15974   free   BY164664   ChrY   7974092   7974092   A-
15974   free   BZ2126   ChrY   12366502   12366502   T-
15974   2018-07-28   CDY   ChrY   26152021   26152296   31-37
15974   free   CDY   ChrY   26152021   26152296   31-37
15974   free   CTS2793   ChrY   12366521   12366521   G-
15974   free   CTS10973   ChrY   20701497   20701497   C-
15974   free   DYF399X   ChrY   25096369   25096670   21t-25c-25.1t
15974   free   DYS19   ChrY   9521934   9522128   14
15974   free   DYS385   ChrY   20801456   20801824   12-18
15974   free   DYS388   ChrY   14747462   14747617   15
15974   free   DYS389I   ChrY   14612070   14612316   12
15974   free   DYS389II   ChrY   14612070   14612316   29
15974   2018-07-28   DYS390   ChrY   17274874   17275219   24
15974   free   DYS390   ChrY   17274874   17275219   24
15974   free   DYS391   ChrY   14102758   14103044   10
15974   free   DYS392   ChrY   22633758   22634011   11
15974   free   DYS393   ChrY   3131128   3131246   12
15974   free   DYS426   ChrY   19134813   19134909   10
15974   free   DYS437   ChrY   14466964   14467155   14
15974   free   DYS438   ChrY   14937795   14938015   10
15974   free   DYS439   ChrY   14515159   14515410   12
15974   free   DYS442   ChrY   14761064   14761368   14
15974   free   DYS447   ChrY   15278692   15278902   24
15974   free   DYS448   ChrY   24365000   24365293   20
15974   free   DYS449   ChrY   8217908   8218262   28
15974   free   DYS454   ChrY   8224083   8224282   11
15974   free   DYS455   ChrY   6911459   6911638   11
15974   free   DYS456   ChrY   4270942   4271090   15
15974   free   DYS458   ChrY   7867839   7867961   18.2
15974   free   DYS459   ChrY   26078790   26078941   8-9
15974   free   DYS460   ChrY   21050798   21050966   11
15974   2018-07-28   DYS464   ChrY   25240822   25241096   14-14-15-16
15974   free   DYS464   ChrY   25240822   25241096   14-14-15-16
15974   2018-07-28   DYS464X   ChrY   25240822   25241096   14g-14g-15g-16g
15974   free   DYS464X   ChrY   25240822   25241096   14g-14g-15g-16g
15974   free   DYS570   ChrY   6861115   6861370   18
15974   free   DYS576   ChrY   7053302   7053492   17
15974   2018-07-28   DYS607   ChrY   18414306   18414498   14
15974   free   DYS607   ChrY   18414306   18414498   14
15974   free   DYS724   ChrY   26152021   26152296   31-37
15974   free   FGC21497   ChrY   7973929   7973929   T-
15974   free   FGC30156   ChrY   20701412   20701412   A-
15974   free   FGC43287   ChrY   7974122   7974122   G-
15974   free   FGC43780   ChrY   20701328   20701328   A-
15974   free   FGC51007   ChrY   7974279   7974279   C-
15974   free   FGC68859   ChrY   12366388   12366388   T-
15974   free   L233   ChrY   12366631   12366631   G-
15974   free   L1381   ChrY   12366412   12366412   T-
15974   free   M7176   ChrY   7974006   7974006   T-
15974   free   M8131   ChrY   20701374   20701374   T-
15974   free   M12139   ChrY   7973998   7973998   C-
15974   free   MF3146   ChrY   7974238   7974238   G-
15974   free   MF11160   ChrY   20701469   20701469   G-
15974   free   MF14465   ChrY   7974011   7974011   A-
15974   free   MF15061   ChrY   12366452   12366452   A-
15974   free   P56   ChrY   12366607   12366607   A-
15974   2018-08-21   P56   ChrY   12366607   12366607   A-
15974   free   PF7263   ChrY   20701461   20701461   T+
15974   2018-08-28   PF7263   ChrY   20701461   20701461   T+
15974   free   PF7264   ChrY   7974038   7974038   G+
15974   2018-08-16   PF7264   ChrY   7974038   7974038   G+
15974   free   S183   ChrY   12366631   12366631   G-
15974   free   Y-GATA-H4   ChrY   18743384   18743751   10
15974   free   Y22448   ChrY   20701328   20701328   A-
15974   free   Y24943   ChrY   20701328   20701328   A-
15974   free   Y32071   ChrY   12366580   12366580   T-
15974   free   Y39163   ChrY   7974062   7974062   C-
15974   free   Y46493   ChrY   7973974   7973974   G-
15974   free   Y46494   ChrY   7974023   7974023   G-
15974   free   Y46495   ChrY   7974262   7974262   T-
15974   free   Y49593   ChrY   12366527   12366527   G-
15974   free   Y85133   ChrY   7973931   7973931   T-
15974   free   Y85134   ChrY   7974112   7974112   T-
15974   free   Y109995   ChrY   20701384   20701384   A-
15974   free   Y136003   ChrY   12366537   12366537   G-
15974   free   Y147346   ChrY   7974067   7974067   G-
15974   free   YCAII   ChrY   19622083   19622240   19-22
15974   free   YP1066   ChrY   20701297   20701297   G-
15974   free   Z11653   ChrY   20701491   20701491   T-
15974   free   Z33972   ChrY   7973903   7973903   A-
15974   free   Z34748   ChrY   7973844   7973844   C-
15974   free   Z36725   ChrY   7974203   7974203   G-
15974   free   ZS5194   ChrY   20701412   20701412   A-
15974   free   ZS8356   ChrY   7973991   7973991   C-
15974   free   ZS9802   ChrY   7973890   7973890   G-
15974   free   ZS11872   ChrY   20701309   20701309   A-

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« Одговор #75 послато: Септембар 01, 2018, 06:32:07 поподне »
Yes :) Congratulations on the confirmation.

I take a look on Yseq offers for further testing.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cyjs9kxFD2TQX0WtMuIe7OuFCMBtzOgM/view?usp=sharing

Their name for PF7263 is ZS4381 (by the way, nice of them to call it PF7263 in your result). It has next SNPs: L256 (probably not yours; it was find in some earlier scientific works, but no one who is tested had it), Z28144 (same as L256; it is found in some samples from Sardinia, without name; probably Phoenician or Jewish colonists; probably not important for you) and ZS4376. ZS4376 has branches: ZS8976 found in BigY of Goss and ZS4452 found in most of us.

ZS4452 has next branches:ZS9952 which is found in Ruddenklau and Maksimović (and probably pozitive for all serbian samples) samples, ZS4375 found in Moray sample and ZS10572 found in Vanett sample. Unfortunatly, I didn't found that they are testing ZS10589.

I found some other SNPs which look they are under ZS4452: A19220, A19217, A19211. I don't know where is there position in J1 tree, so I don't recommand them for testing without more informations

https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=60209
https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=60207
https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=60206

What I can recommend is ZS4452 or ZS10572 (probably better ZS4452). I don't know if you can ask them do they test ZS10589. If this is possible, then I would recommend this SNP first

I don't know if you see our position in Yseq tree:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/13-ZCyiHK7qWM6aWgjrGp02oaDiCtFYGh/view?usp=sharing

Yseq has Facebook group and you probably can put question on it:

https://web.facebook.com/groups/YSEQDNA/

Uh, too much english for me today. By by
« Последња измена: Септембар 01, 2018, 06:34:35 поподне radon »

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« Одговор #76 послато: Септембар 01, 2018, 09:41:38 поподне »
Dear Radon,
Thank you so much for all the valuable info! It's a good idea to ask them if they test ZS10589 on their FB page first. I didn't know they had such a page, thank you. Truth is, a couple of times they did not answer questions sent by email so the FB page sounds like a good idea! So I will ask them first and then I will let you know.
Now that it has been finally confirmed...;-) many greetings , my fellow PF7263 :-P!

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« Одговор #77 послато: Септембар 02, 2018, 01:51:36 поподне »
Thomas's (yseq) answer:

Yes we can.
https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=81625

We even have primers in stock, so there is no delay for ordering new primers.

In general it is possible to send a 'Wish a SNP' order for all possible markers that you need for your research.

So, what would you suggest?

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« Одговор #78 послато: Септембар 02, 2018, 01:52:13 поподне »
;-) I have no clue what primers are, haha
« Последња измена: Септембар 02, 2018, 01:53:58 поподне Alexandra_K »

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« Одговор #79 послато: Септембар 02, 2018, 02:58:33 поподне »
Quick answer- best answer ;)

I think that primers are newer untested SNPs so you would be the first to check their value.

It's hard to say. Careful me should say "Check ZS4452 first", but gambler in me should say "Let's check ZS10589, maybe we would save some money". I belive that you are positive on ZS4452 , but I'm in doubt about Zs10589. You probably not belong to cluster A3 and A4 because of value on DYS607, they have 13 and you have 14. But this is biggest group, Maragoudakis is in it, so maybe it will be worth to test it.

In worst case we will take step back and test ZS4452. I hope I help a little

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« Одговор #80 послато: Септембар 02, 2018, 06:23:15 поподне »
Ok, so I guess the gambler in me too will go for ZS10589, hehe. I'll sleep on it tonight and I will order tomorrow ;-) Yes, you are always very helpful and I am grateful for this! :-)

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« Одговор #81 послато: Септембар 03, 2018, 07:42:42 пре подне »
Dobro jutro! So I ordered ZS10589 and now we are waiting... ;)

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« Одговор #82 послато: Септембар 03, 2018, 07:35:01 поподне »
Excellent! Now we are waiting for the result 8)

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« Одговор #83 послато: Септембар 03, 2018, 10:04:11 поподне »
 :D :D

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« Одговор #84 послато: Септембар 06, 2018, 06:01:03 поподне »
With the assistance of Radon, you're surely going to the straight bankruptcy, that's for sure He's paid from DNA's testing companies for this  :P

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« Одговор #85 послато: Септембар 06, 2018, 07:45:14 поподне »
With the assistance of Radon, you're surely going to the straight bankruptcy, that's for sure He's paid from DNA's testing companies for this  :P

Well, I am sorry about the cost of testing, but I hope that something good will come out of it :)

We will see after this ZS10589 where we are

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« Одговор #86 послато: Септембар 06, 2018, 07:49:36 поподне »
Hehe, Kor, I can see it coming...;-P Nooo, just kidding, without your help ,guys, I would be much worse off :-)

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« Одговор #87 послато: Септембар 09, 2018, 08:15:36 пре подне »
 Ćao svima!

Quick results summary:
ZS10589 A-

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« Одговор #88 послато: Септембар 09, 2018, 11:42:15 пре подне »
Ćao svima!

Quick results summary:
ZS10589 A-

Well what to say :(

I hoped you'll be positive on it. Now we have ZS4452 if you're in good mood for it :). I belive you will be positive on it

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« Одговор #89 послато: Септембар 09, 2018, 12:44:31 поподне »
No problem! We are just trying here, I don't think there is an easier way to do it... ;-)
I think I will test this one too, we have come so far that it would be a pity to give up. :-)
If we test positive for this, does it already place us in some cluster or we would have to test further? I still have difficulty in understanding the classification.
Hvala!!

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« Одговор #90 послато: Септембар 09, 2018, 12:57:30 поподне »
I found already the answer to my question looking at your previous answers, sorry :)
So if we test positive for this (ZS4452) then normally there are at least 3 more options (looking at its position in the tree that you sent me).

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« Одговор #91 послато: Септембар 09, 2018, 03:54:17 поподне »
Well, I belive that if you are positive on ZS4452 that is preety much "end of the road". You would be sharing common ancestor with us who had lived 3000 years before present (around 1000 BC).



Under ZS4452 you have ZS10589 (you are negative on it), ZS9952 (Ruddenklau and Maksimovic haplogroup; you probably not this, on DYS388 we share value 18 and you have 15 which is more common for other clusters) and ZS4375 ( which only have Moray). I also noticed one more branch under ZS4452 with name BY38105 shared by people from Portugal, Norway and Iraq. I only look at STR values of man from Iraq because others don't have public results, and I don't believe that you are this one either. (but you can check it; Kor either think that I work for Yseq :))

Maybe best thing should be, if you get positive on ZS4452, to wait a little until some thing in our branch become more clear.

Meantime, we can talk about possible ethnic identity of people who were carriers of this SNP (ZS4452). It look like they have enormous rise in period around 1000 BC. I was thinking about Arameans or something like that but there spreading, variance etc mostly look like pattern of old Israelites or some population close to them

I would like to hear what some other people think

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« Одговор #92 послато: Септембар 09, 2018, 07:25:57 поподне »
Thank you! :-) Hopefully we will be found positive, so that we will get our much desired answer! ;-)
So, according to you, they must have been some kind of Israelites? I have also heard the opinion that in the case of Greece theoretically speaking J1 could also be attributed to very early (pre-greek) migrations to the area of people originating from Anatolia? Could this be possible also in the case of your branch?

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« Одговор #93 послато: Септембар 09, 2018, 10:50:46 поподне »
As I previously wrote Radon on PM, it could be a completely new branch inside of diagram from above. 

Цитат
So, according to you, they must have been some kind of Israelites?
Israelites are a different (P58) branch parallel with PF7264. We still don't have any answer about precise origin of PF7264's predecessor. It is a rather wide region from Caucasus on north, Zagros mountains and central Iraq on South and East and Central Anatolia or something similar on the west. The most important thing in this kind of sport is patience, as I already said before.

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« Одговор #94 послато: Септембар 10, 2018, 06:31:49 пре подне »
Dobar dan Kor!
And thank you for your answer! How can one discover if he's a new branch? Only through the Big-Y? :-/
So, if we test negative for ZS4452 what would the next step be? (even if we have to wait for a while because the capital has gone seriously down, hehe...).
So, the origin of your Serbian cluster(s) according to you still remains unclear?
Doviđenja!

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« Одговор #95 послато: Септембар 10, 2018, 07:33:45 пре подне »
Dobar dan Kor!
And thank you for your answer! How can one discover if he's a new branch? Only through the Big-Y? :-/
So, if we test negative for ZS4452 what would the next step be? (even if we have to wait for a while because the capital has gone seriously down, hehe...).
So, the origin of your Serbian cluster(s) according to you still remains unclear?
Doviđenja!

I think you can order new branch BY38105 at Yseq, if you are positive on ZS4452. If you become negative on ZS4452 only other SNP you can order is ZS4376, hierarchical upon ZS4452.

@Kor

Why should Israelites be only P58? We have two clusters that are without any doubt Jewish, ZS10589 cluster A3 and A4. Other clusters also show similar pattern of Jewish diaspora in Europe and Fertile crescent. Iraqi sample BY38105 is very important because it is confirmed ZS4452 but not ZS10589, he is in same level as most of other PF7263 lines, so it looks like Fertile crescent is not fatherland for most of PF7263. Some Kurdish samples are confirmed ZS4376, but I don't know if they are tested positive on ZS4452. Privately I believe they should be

So, we have enough materials to look Jewish to me :)

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« Одговор #96 послато: Септембар 10, 2018, 10:50:11 пре подне »
Thank you, Radon!
Is there any way to know the period of the migration of your branch to Serbia? Again, excuse my ignorance, but are we talking more or less about an ancient migration or a more recent one eg. during Roman times or even medieval? Somebody had mentioned as a possible source Jewish soldiers, mercenaries or merchants, if I remember right?

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« Одговор #97 послато: Септембар 10, 2018, 03:02:40 поподне »
Thank you, Radon!
Is there any way to know the period of the migration of your branch to Serbia? Again, excuse my ignorance, but are we talking more or less about an ancient migration or a more recent one eg. during Roman times or even medieval? Somebody had mentioned as a possible source Jewish soldiers, mercenaries or merchants, if I remember right?

No, theoretically he could come from any time since origin 1000 BC until now. On the other side, clan/katun of Vlahović connected with our haplogroup is mention around 1300 year AD. So this is the time frame for it's occurrence. Secundary we have Ruddenklau with who we share common SNP ZS9952. Was the man who were that mutation European or Near Eastern we are not quite shore. According to Viktar, our common ancestor lived before 1780 years, but some parts of Maksimovic BigY test don't have good readings so he could be older (not much 100-200 years) which fit perfectly for time of diaspora during First Roman- Jewish war ;D (ok, now I expect critic).

So, I would add slave status to possible origin of the grandpa, beside military and trade

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« Одговор #98 послато: Септембар 10, 2018, 07:02:13 поподне »
Wow, cool, thanks for the explanation! :-)

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« Одговор #99 послато: Септембар 11, 2018, 06:47:22 поподне »
Quick results summary:
ZS4452 T+

:-D

Ван мреже Alexandra_K

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« Одговор #100 послато: Септембар 11, 2018, 06:51:34 поподне »
15974   free   PF7263   ChrY   20701461   20701461   T+
15974   2018-08-28   PF7263   ChrY   20701461   20701461   T+
15974   free   PF7264   ChrY   7974038   7974038   G+
15974   2018-08-16   PF7264   ChrY   7974038   7974038   G+
15974   free   S183   ChrY   12366631   12366631   G-
15974   free   Y-GATA-H4   ChrY   18743384   18743751   10
15974   free   Y3758   ChrY   21578093   21578093   G-
15974   free   Y21651   ChrY   21578214   21578214   G-
15974   free   Y21661   ChrY   21578243   21578243   A-
15974   free   Y22448   ChrY   20701328   20701328   A-
15974   free   Y24943   ChrY   20701328   20701328   A-
15974   free   Y29700   ChrY   21578400   21578400   G-
15974   free   Y31307   ChrY   22284900   22284900   A-
15974   free   Y32071   ChrY   12366580   12366580   T-
15974   free   Y39163   ChrY   7974062   7974062   C-
15974   free   Y46493   ChrY   7973974   7973974   G-
15974   free   Y46494   ChrY   7974023   7974023   G-
15974   free   Y46495   ChrY   7974262   7974262   T-
15974   free   Y49593   ChrY   12366527   12366527   G-
15974   free   Y59493   ChrY   21578300   21578300   C-
15974   free   Y59805   ChrY   22284888   22284888   T-
15974   free   Y80272   ChrY   21578116   21578116   T-
15974   free   Y80699   ChrY   22284916   22284916   T-
15974   free   Y85133   ChrY   7973931   7973931   T-
15974   free   Y85134   ChrY   7974112   7974112   T-
15974   free   Y109995   ChrY   20701384   20701384   A-
15974   free   Y112189   ChrY   21578399   21578399   C-
15974   free   Y112838   ChrY   22285158   22285158   A-
15974   free   Y112839   ChrY   22285311   22285311   T-
15974   free   Y136003   ChrY   12366537   12366537   G-
15974   free   Y147346   ChrY   7974067   7974067   G-
15974   free   YCAII   ChrY   19622083   19622240   19-22
15974   free   YP272   ChrY   22284890   22284890   T-
15974   free   YP1066   ChrY   20701297   20701297   G-
15974   free   Z11653   ChrY   20701491   20701491   T-
15974   free   Z30770   ChrY   22285164   22285164   A-
15974   free   Z33972   ChrY   7973903   7973903   A-
15974   free   Z34748   ChrY   7973844   7973844   C-
15974   free   Z36725   ChrY   7974203   7974203   G-
15974   free   Z39407   ChrY   21577937   21577937   G-
15974   free   ZS4452   ChrY   22285198   22285198   T+
15974   2018-09-09   ZS4452   ChrY   22285198   22285198   T+
15974   free   ZS4869   ChrY   22285292   22285292   A-
15974   free   ZS5194   ChrY   20701412   20701412   A-
15974   free   ZS5432   ChrY   22285058   22285058   C-
15974   free   ZS7706   ChrY   22284983   22284983   C-
15974   free   ZS8356   ChrY   7973991   7973991   C-
15974   free   ZS9802   ChrY   7973890   7973890   G-
15974   free   ZS10589   ChrY   21577947   21577947   A-
15974   2018-09-03   ZS10589   ChrY   21577947   21577947   A-
15974   free   ZS11872   ChrY   20701309   20701309   A-

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« Одговор #101 послато: Септембар 12, 2018, 07:50:38 пре подне »
Quick results summary:
ZS4452 T+

:-D

Well that is exellent news. Yseq was very quick this time. So we know your position in the tree right now. What do you think about it?

Ван мреже Alexandra_K

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« Одговор #102 послато: Септембар 12, 2018, 08:33:41 пре подне »
Yes, I am very happy to have found out!!!  ;D  ;) So, theoretically speaking we could still belong to cluster BY38105? The branches of Moray and Maksivomic are already out of the question? Or maybe there is a completely new branch under ZS4452 where my father belongs to? Thank you, fellow ZS4452 :-P

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« Одговор #103 послато: Септембар 12, 2018, 11:50:37 пре подне »
Yes, I am very happy to have found out!!!  ;D  ;) So, theoretically speaking we could still belong to cluster BY38105? The branches of Moray and Maksivomic are already out of the question? Or maybe there is a completely new branch under ZS4452 where my father belongs to? Thank you, fellow ZS4452 :-P

Yes, you could be BY38105, even I doubt. Maksimovic is out of question and at Moray we can't divide what are his personal SNPs and what he share with some wider community. I don't know if Yseq have some other phylogenetic tree more detailed for ZS4452, to see what they offer for further testing. You may ask them if you want.

In this moment I belive that you father is some independent brench under ZS4452. I will send you something on PM

About some history materials I would recommend work of Alexander Panayotov, Bulgarian historian which field among others is history of the Jews on Balkan and Aegean

The firs work is about "The first Jewish communities in the Balkans and the Aegean" with informations about first communities in region of south Balkan. Paper is not long, 18 pages but with lot material
http://www.academia.edu/1510819/The_First_Jewish_Communities_in_the_Balkans_and_the_Aegean

Second is "Jews and Jewish communities in the Balkans and the Aegean until the twelfth century" with list of material artefacts and epigraphic monuments about Jewish presence in these parts of Roman empire

http://www.academia.edu/9135114/Jews_and_Jewish_communities_in_the_Balkans_and_the_Aegean_until_the_twelfth_century

So, welcome to family Alexandra :)

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« Одговор #104 послато: Септембар 12, 2018, 08:36:31 поподне »
Thank you so much, Radon! I feel really great to be part of the same big family as you guys! :-)
Thank you for the PM, yes, I see what you mean, cool :-)
Well, that's a good idea, I will write to them and ask this.
Once I have some more time, I will read the essays you attached (as soon as possible, because I am so curious!). It has been very hectic today and didn't have the chance.
Many many greetings!
Laku noć!!

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« Одговор #105 послато: Септембар 18, 2018, 09:15:16 поподне »
They were really quick this time!

Quick results summary:
BY38105 T+

Radon....Bingo!!!

:-D :-D
« Последња измена: Септембар 18, 2018, 09:34:38 поподне Amicus »

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« Одговор #106 послато: Новембар 03, 2018, 09:45:51 поподне »
Hi!
I apologize if I get intervene in the discussion but I would like to give my contribution to the debate about the origins of our haplogroup PF7263. First of all, I'm happy to know you. In a sense we are distant relatives since we share the paternal ancestor. I followed your very interesting discussion on the forum "Хаплогрупа J1-PF7263, покушај историјске реконструкције" and I thank you for the many information provided.
I would very much like to find out the origin of our common ancestor!
I am Sicilian (Italy) and I tested my DNA with BIG Y of FTDNA a few months ago and my haplogroup is  J1 BY38105. At this moment on the SNP map of FTDNA this haplogroup turns out to be brought over by me, from an Iraqi, a Portuguese and a Norwegian, as well as obviously from the relative of Alexandra. My STR values are shown on the page of the J1 Y-DNA project of FTDNA.
The STR values of the people BY38105 present considerable divergences and this makes me think that there are sub-clades still to be discovered.
About the possible Jewish origin of many clades downstream of PF7263, I agree with what was reported by Radon. First of all PF7264 (from which PF7263 and P56 descend) is  brother of P58 since they both derive from L136. PF7264, with its descendants PF7263 and P56, is undoubtedly a minor cluster present in all populations of Semitic origin (Jews, Arabs, Yemenis, etc.)
Among the many clues I found for example, I observe wich on 71 people downstream of PF7263 present in the various FTDNA projects, 27 (38%) have a clear Jewish origin proven by the participation in Jewish projects of FTDNA or the indications provided by the various members (2 out of 4 within BY38105). Moreover, even many individuals who are not currently Jews present on the basis of STR values a very high genetic closeness with current Jewish individuals and consequently many of them could be descendants of Jews converted to Christianity or Islam.
Finally, PF7263 and its downstream clades as well as resulting from the various FTDNA groups have their main diffusion center in the Central Eastern European areas traditionally populated by Ashkenazi Jews. PF7263 and  clades downstream are also widespread in areas very distant from each other such as Southern Italy, the Canary Islands, Yemen, Spain, Iraq and Kurdistan, countries united by the fact that they have been inhabited by thriving Jewish communities.
Interesting, even if no longer updated, is this site on the Hebrew DNA that confirms that PF7263 is certainly widespread among the Jews: http://jewishdna.net/index.html. In particular the branches pPF7263 are the A-39 and the A-38.
Radon I wanted to ask you two questions:
1.   do you know what Viktar Mas thinks of our haplogroup J1PF7263?
2.   do you know why the clusters of the J1 Y-DNA project of FTDNA are no longer updated?
Thank you very much for the attention

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« Одговор #107 послато: Новембар 04, 2018, 08:15:05 пре подне »
Hi!
I apologize if I get intervene in the discussion but I would like to give my contribution to the debate about the origins of our haplogroup PF7263. First of all, I'm happy to know you. In a sense we are distant relatives since we share the paternal ancestor. I followed your very interesting discussion on the forum "Хаплогрупа J1-PF7263, покушај историјске реконструкције" and I thank you for the many information provided.
I would very much like to find out the origin of our common ancestor!
I am Sicilian (Italy) and I tested my DNA with BIG Y of FTDNA a few months ago and my haplogroup is  J1 BY38105. At this moment on the SNP map of FTDNA this haplogroup turns out to be brought over by me, from an Iraqi, a Portuguese and a Norwegian, as well as obviously from the relative of Alexandra. My STR values are shown on the page of the J1 Y-DNA project of FTDNA.
The STR values of the people BY38105 present considerable divergences and this makes me think that there are sub-clades still to be discovered.
About the possible Jewish origin of many clades downstream of PF7263, I agree with what was reported by Radon. First of all PF7264 (from which PF7263 and P56 descend) is  brother of P58 since they both derive from L136. PF7264, with its descendants PF7263 and P56, is undoubtedly a minor cluster present in all populations of Semitic origin (Jews, Arabs, Yemenis, etc.)
Among the many clues I found for example, I observe wich on 71 people downstream of PF7263 present in the various FTDNA projects, 27 (38%) have a clear Jewish origin proven by the participation in Jewish projects of FTDNA or the indications provided by the various members (2 out of 4 within BY38105). Moreover, even many individuals who are not currently Jews present on the basis of STR values a very high genetic closeness with current Jewish individuals and consequently many of them could be descendants of Jews converted to Christianity or Islam.
Finally, PF7263 and its downstream clades as well as resulting from the various FTDNA groups have their main diffusion center in the Central Eastern European areas traditionally populated by Ashkenazi Jews. PF7263 and  clades downstream are also widespread in areas very distant from each other such as Southern Italy, the Canary Islands, Yemen, Spain, Iraq and Kurdistan, countries united by the fact that they have been inhabited by thriving Jewish communities.
Interesting, even if no longer updated, is this site on the Hebrew DNA that confirms that PF7263 is certainly widespread among the Jews: http://jewishdna.net/index.html. In particular the branches pPF7263 are the A-39 and the A-38.
Radon I wanted to ask you two questions:
1.   do you know what Viktar Mas thinks of our haplogroup J1PF7263?
2.   do you know why the clusters of the J1 Y-DNA project of FTDNA are no longer updated?
Thank you very much for the attention

Hello Odisseo and welcome :)

I'm happy to see new members of PF7263 in discussion and I believe Alexandra also.

On "Хаплогрупа J1-PF7263, покушај историјске реконструкције" we had great cooperation from many people, especially Ljiljan. I'm glad we succeeded in making some sense about origin and spreading our haplogroup.

You also done good job with collecting other PF7263 in different projects. I also tracked for some time other members of Pf7263 but after some time I lost a count :)
About origin of PF7263 your opinion is also mine. I can't say that all PF7263 were Jews when they spread from Levant, but I do believe that ZS4452 were Jew (or territorially very close to Jewish community). For latter spreading I do believe that there carriers were soldiers, merchants or slaves, as most mobile groups of population in antiquity. Also sailors for Mediterranean clusters of PF7263.
For BY38105 you have very interesting pattern of spreading. Whatever was his name, BY38105 looks like very successful man with lots of descendants. I believe that Mesopotamian haplotypes (Kurds, Turkmens, Shia and Suni Arabs) are also positive on BY3815, and that possibility would be very interesting, opening question if our branch belong to same of ancient Jewish tribes captured by Assirians. I know this is very radically but it just looks like that to me.
There is also possibility that carrier of our branch was some Aramean, but for now I go with Jewish theory, (corrected with Phoenician theory in some cases)  :)

I'm not part of FTDNA project (I was tested in local Serbian laboratory), and for some time I'm don't follow FB page of J1 Y-DNA project, so I'm not very familiar with new thoughts about our branch. If I remember correctly, Viktar believed that PF7263 come from Mesopotamia and spread in Levant and Anadolia and further in Europe during Bronze age, but it was few years ago, when we didn't have BigY results. I'm not shore what he think today.
Same thing with clusters. It's clear that somebody do something with new BigY results, because new SNPs are emerging but I don't know who do that. You can wrote Viktar, or FTDNA to get more informations.

I believe that Viktar become tired. I also become tired after some time and need some rest. I hope that he will come back for some time. He has done tremendous job for all J1 haplogroup and make, in my opinion, still best phylogenetic tree for us.

Once again hello and welcome on Poreklo.rs :)

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« Одговор #108 послато: Новембар 04, 2018, 08:39:54 поподне »
Radon, thank you very much for your kind answers! Your hypothesis about BY38105 and the Mesopotamian peoples is truly intriguing. I hope it is soon confirmed by the results of other tests.
I will continue my research, and if I have news I will communicate it on this forum.
Let's keep up to date!