Аутор Тема: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece  (Прочитано 17595 пута)

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Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« послато: Јул 04, 2018, 11:41:40 поподне »
Hello again everyone,

Just out of personal interest and curiosity I am collecting information regarding the historical presence of the Slavs in our area of Epirus (village: Ekklisohori Ioanninon, previous name Tserkovista/Tsarkovista, area of Kourenta).

Here I copy some related information that I already tried to sum up in the previous thread I started here:

The other side of my family (maternal) come from the village Tserkovista (now Ekklisohori) in the area of Ioannina, Epirus. The village was a Vajunite settlement of the Middle Ages (earliest possible,  9th century). It had always belonged to a regional subdivision called Kourenta. Kurent(a) had been the surname of the Slavic Zupan owning or settling at the area. Most of the villages of Kourenta used to have names of Slavic origin like ours. I am writing all this to you, because one of these villages was called Vlachokatouno (Vlahokatuno). It was inhabited by Vlachs until the 17th century if I remember right. My very family must depict theoretically a continuation of this legacy like most of the locals. Of course, especially in my family we also have known Vlach and Arvanite roots.  According to historical sources the Slavic settlers of the area never left but settled for good, having sent away or annihilated most of the local male  population but often marrying to local women who had mostly survived the invasions. So through the centuries they gradually became assimilated culturally, genetically and linguistically.
There might still be some slight evidence of the Slavic legacy in the local dialect and pronounciation, I would think. Also some characteristic elements like the fact that the local surnames (esp. the female ones) would still sound very Slavic . As opposed to the official surnames the locals would refer to each other as follows: Kostayannova, Yannantonova etc. (These are actually the local unofficial surnames of my grandmother and great-grandmother). We also have the surname Detsikas pronounced Dečkas which made me think of dečko, now that I am trying to learn Serbian.
Anyways, I just mentioned this because the katun of  Vlahovic made me think of Vlahokatuno in our area. Nothing to do with my fathers family though 😉


Ok, so I was very curious to find out if the Vajunites could be linked to some modern-day Slavic population. I have only managed to find out that they were a Southern Slavic tribe. At some point, I was misled through the erroneous automatic translation (google) ;-) to think that they might have been actual Slovenes - however this was the mistaken translation in English of the word for "Slavs" in Serbian.
However, I have found one clue that brings me back to Slovenia: their mythical figure Kurent. Kurenta (the group of villages our village has always belonged to) was called like that because of the name of the Slavic Zupan who had settled there or owned the area. There is also a nearby village with the name Kourenta.
Based on the above, I also searched for a possible surname Kurent/ Kurenta and I only found quite a few cases in Slovenia and some in Croatia (for Kurent) and only a few in Romania (for Kurenta). I think though that the actual name of the guy must have been without the "a" at the end. The ending -a in Greek can signify the place(s) owned by the specific person (it is plural of neurtal as in sel-a).
Speaking of sela, the old center of our village was named Selio, also of slavic origin.
As for the original name of our village I copy my own notes from another post:
Our place of origin is a village near Ioannina, Greece, called Ekklisohori. It was renamed in 1928 and its original name had been Tserkovista (or Tsarkovista). Slavic for church village, more or less (see cerkov+ista-->coming from -ica). It was a Slavic settlement of the Middle Ages. It can be placed the earliest around the 9th century after the Slavs were christianized (see cerkov). The Slavic settlers have allegedly married mostly to local women and through the centuries they were assimilated both culturally and genetically, however leaving a distinct signature in place names, surnames and everyday vocabulary (even in our local accent I would think). The village was later on occupied also by Bulgarians, Serbs, and of course by the Turks. In the village and the broader area, the Greeks (and Slavs) have long coexisted with Vlachs and Arvanites as well.

I have been told by someone that the Serbs did not settle in big numbers, although they had conquered the area for some time - rather, a small number of noble Serbs settled and were given lands as rulers. According to the same person, the Bulgarians did settle more massaly though. I would have to look this up once.

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #1 послато: Јул 04, 2018, 11:42:10 поподне »
A list of the Slavic toponyms of the villages of Kourenta that I have put together is the following:

So this is a list of the Slavic names of villages belonging to the "Kourenta" group of villages which must have been settlements of the Vajunites:

Veltsista: "white place" (Gortzis)/ from the Slavic "Belciste" (Vasmer), area or fields belonging to Velts (Velts= fountain of water to the west of the village, river Veltsistino) (Bettis)/ of Slavic origin (Velts+ista)/ Slavic toponym (Oikonomou)

Gribovo and Gribianι: a) Vlach word...or b) Slavic word meaning place where mushrooms are abundant

Gourianista: (Vasmer) Gorjaniste, Gorjane= inhabitant of the mountain, (Oikonomou) Slavic "Gorjan"(Gor= arson < goreti= to burn+ ending -ist

Granitsopoula: Slavic, granica= sort of oak well-known in the area

Doliana: doljane= slavic word for inhabitant of the valley

Dragomι: Dragomir?

Zagoriani: (Vasmar) Slavic word zagorjane (the one who lives behind the forests-?), the name was given most probably by the Slavs who had settled at the back and western side of Ano Kalamas river).

Zelista: zeleno?

Zitsa: Slavic, soul or border

Karitsa: (Oikonomou), slavic "koryto" (basin)/ Slavic garb < v. goreti (to burn)/ (Bettis) Slavic, kara = punishment or sentence

Kosoliani: of Slavic origin- no further explanation

Kourenta: of Slavic origin - no further explanation (Kurent???)

Mosiari: ? sounds a bit Slavic too but could not find info

Brianista: ? sounds Slavic to me :-) but again could not find info

Pogdoriani: Slavic word meaning a place under the mountains

Raiko/Rajko: from the surname Raikos, Greek version of the Slavic Rajko. Name of the first settler or owner of the area/ Slavic noun "Raj"= paradise

Rahovitsa/ Riahovo (see Arahovistsa): place with walnuts

Sioutista: was founded by Souliotes (Arvanites) that fled to the area as Sioutista from the Slavic name of the mountain "Kasidiaris" which refers to a goat without horns

Tserkovista/ Tsarkovista: Slavic "Cerkov"+ ista, area with churches



Ван мреже Alexandra_K

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #2 послато: Јул 04, 2018, 11:43:27 поподне »
Sorry for the repetition of some information but I am trying to sum up here some of my past posts from another forum. Below another post of mine citing information about the village's name and the Slavic settlement from a book about our village (Ekkisohori- Tsarkovista Ioanninon by P.D.Tziovas):

Most of the villages' names were changed or hellenized in the 20th century. Our village's name was changed in 1928 from Tsarkovista to Ekklisohori (Greek literal translation). Others changed even as late as the 1950's or even 60's, if I remember right.

Now about the name of our village, more specifically, I am quoting (and translating) P.D. Tziovas from his book: Ekklisohori, Tsarkovista Ioanninon:

"The name Tsarkovista or Tserkovista is produced by the Slavic Curkua (=church) and together with the known toponymic ending -ica, it means position of a church, or place dedicated to a church or even a village near a church and this, beacause the ending -ista is plural (Bettis). Labridis supports that the name is "signifying a place with the meaning, small royal property, from the replacement of consonants in Tsarskovica", and in another instance he claims that the name comes from "cerkov (=church) and that it denotes a dedication to the maintainance of a church". Finally, Vasmer regards as most probable that the name is produced by the Bulgarian, tsirky, tserkov, tserko-viste that means church".

"According to Pr. Zakinthinos the epirot toponyms Tsarkovista, Tserkovista, Tserkouviana etc. are etymologically connected to the Old Slavic word meaning church and as such could not be older than the second half of the 9th century, when the apostolic action was observed for the christianization of the Slavs. The size of the villages (oikismoi) where the Slavs settled depended on the number and the order of the inhabitants and ranged from 5,000 to 30,000 square meters. Each village (oikismos) had on average 8-10 houses with 40-50 appr. inhabitants, while the big villages could reach 20 houses with approx. 100 inhabitants."

"Based on this, the largest group of Slavic invaders must have settled to the west of today's village in the position "Selio" which means village, where there was according to the inhabitants' tradition, the most ancient church of the area, dedicated to Saint Taxiarches. Of course, the Slavic invaders settled all over the village, by displacing or annihilating the weaker local residents, from whom only the women survived, who through intermarriage secured many racial qualities of the natives, with first and foremost the passing down of the Greek language to new generations".


In this other forum, some people suggested that the Vajunites must be mostly connected to the Eastern Balkans (eg Bulgaria, North Macedonia...) judging from the linguistics of the toponyms. He also gave me the example of a word we use, ververica, saying that it is similar to the Macedonian language.

Well, that's it for now. Any ideas or opinions are more than welcome!

Hvala! Laku noć!

Ван мреже Alexandra_K

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« Одговор #3 послато: Јул 04, 2018, 11:44:34 поподне »
Some other info I have found:

Hello again! This source mentions the Slovenes, Serbs, Croats and slavified Bulgarians as the Slavic tribes who invaded and settled in Greece. Of course, it does not specify the origin of the Vajunites in particular but it names in general all of the above South Slavs (as opposed to a supposedly initial all-encompassing Slavic group) as the ones who came to (what is now) Greece:

Σύμφωνα μ’ αυτή, οι Σλάβοι που εγκαταστάθηκαν στις ελληνικές περιοχές υπάγονται στη νότια ομάδα που περιλαμβάνει τους Σλοβένους, τους Κροάτες, τους Σέρβους και τους εκσλαβισθέντες γλωσσικά Βουλγάρους. Σε αντίθεση με την παλιότερη θεωρία του Kopitar, που δεχόταν ότι οι πρώιμοι Σλάβοι που κατέβηκαν προς τον Δούναβη αποτελούσαν αρχικά ενιαία φυλετικά ομάδα που διασπάστηκε εκ των υστέρων, η νεότερη φιλολογική σχολή υποστηρίζει ότι τα σλαβικά αυτά φύλα έφεραν εξ αρχής τα στοιχεία της διαφοροποίησης. Έτσι, πολύ νωρίς, στην οικογένεια των Νοτίων Σλάβων διαμορφώθηκαν τρεις κλάδοι που τους χαρακτήριζε γλωσσική ιδιορρυθμία: οι Σλοβένοι, οι ΣερβοΚροάτες και οι Σλάβοι του Αίμου, που είναι γνωστοί με το άσχετο προς τη Σλαβική οικογένεια όνομα των Βουλγάρων.

The historical overview of Ancestry DNA's "Greece and the Balkans" category agrees with the above source:

Slavs and the Byzantine Empire
As Roman rule weakened, newcomers made their way into the Balkan Peninsula from the east. Some, like the Goths and Huns, came as raiding parties. But starting in the 6th century, the Slavs came to stay. They included Serbs, Slovenes, and Croats. They were followed by the Bulgars—a Turkic people from Central Asia—who founded two empires in the Balkans. As the newcomers moved in, many locals fled coastal lands for the mountains, where they became herders instead of farmers. Byzantine Greeks lived throughout Asia Minor, the Greek Islands, and parts of the southern Balkans. They spoke medieval Greek, practiced Christianity, and identified as Romans. Olive groves and vineyards were common, and bread, wine, and olives were staple foods.

Maybe it does not answer my initial question, but it puts the Slovenes, Serbs and Croats also in the picture. Well, probably a more specific answer is not so easy to reach.

Ван мреже Alexandra_K

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« Одговор #4 послато: Јул 04, 2018, 11:51:02 поподне »
Here are also just a few local words which could be of Slavic origin according to some uncle of mine that I happened to ask:

An unkle of mine just told me a few other words we are using and he considers to be Slavic.
"Γενικά υπάρχουν λίγα μικροτοπωνύμια και πολλές ονοματοδωσίες παλαιών αγροτικών εργαλείων, 'όπως σβάρνα, κόσα,κούρβα. Πολύ συνηθηζόταν η λέξη ζακόνι = συνήθεια αλλά και άγραφος νόμος!..."
He writes that there are a few microtoponyms as well as a lot of names of agricultural tools such as svarna, kosa, curva...he also mentions the word zakoni= habit but also unwritten law. I don't know if they are indeed of Slavic origin? I will try to gather other words too that older people might be using.


I also know we use glava, ververitsa and goustera.

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #5 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 12:00:32 пре подне »
Here are also just a few local words which could be of Slavic origin according to some uncle of mine that I happened to ask:

An unkle of mine just told me a few other words we are using and he considers to be Slavic.
"Γενικά υπάρχουν λίγα μικροτοπωνύμια και πολλές ονοματοδωσίες παλαιών αγροτικών εργαλείων, 'όπως σβάρνα, κόσα,κούρβα. Πολύ συνηθηζόταν η λέξη ζακόνι = συνήθεια αλλά και άγραφος νόμος!..."
He writes that there are a few microtoponyms as well as a lot of names of agricultural tools such as svarna, kosa, curva...he also mentions the word zakoni= habit but also unwritten law. I don't know if they are indeed of Slavic origin? I will try to gather other words too that older people might be using.


I also know we use glava, ververitsa and goustera.
zakon/i - laws in Serbian
glava -head in Serbian
ververitsa (veverica) - Squirrel in Serbian
goustera (gušter in Serbian) - lizard in Serbian
kosa - hair or scythe (agricultural tool) in Serbian
Искушење баца људе с трона,
роба диже изнад фараона.

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #6 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 12:18:59 пре подне »
Zelista: zeleno?

I think this is actually closer to Selište, which means place of dwelling (selo + -ište)

Rahovitsa/ Riahovo (see Arahovistsa): place with walnuts
Orahovo / Orahovica would be Serbo-Croatian, if this helps

Tserkovista/ Tsarkovista: Slavic "Cerkov"+ ista, area with churches
Crkvište in Serbo-Croatian, but common Slavic could give Cerkovišta

Tserkovista/ Tsarkovista: Slavic "Cerkov"+ ista, area with churches

Zitsa: Slavic, soul or border
This toponym could have something to do with the Žiča monastery in Serbia (I assume it is named after the village it is situated in near Kraljevo).

----

κούρβα (kourva) - without any meaning, can't really tell what this means. Kurva in Serbo-Croatian is a vulgar term, but my guess is kourva means cow, which is krava in Serbo-Croatian. The term krava comes from proto-Slavic *korva, which could have morphed into kourva in Ioannina dialects.

----
On a side note, Slavic speakers around Thessalonica are known to speak dialects closer to Macedonian and Bulgarian, so it would not surprise me that the area around Ioannina would be no different. Serbian lords did control parts of Ioannina region for long periods of time in the 14th and 15th centuries (it was part of Stefan Dušan's empire in the late 14th century!), so it could very well be possible that Serbs migrated to the region during this period. Which dialects they spoke is anyone's guess, however.
« Последња измена: Јул 05, 2018, 12:27:11 пре подне Karadag »

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« Одговор #7 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 12:34:02 пре подне »
Thank you both for the very important additions and corrections!!

True, one source of all these lingustic elements can be the Vajunites, but other additional and more recent sources can be the Bulgarian and Serb conquerors. Is it accurate that only Serbian lords settled in the area in very small numbers?

Also the local unofficial surnames (like my grandmother's, Yannantonova for example) can come from any Slavic language potentially, right?
 
Thank you!

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« Одговор #8 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 12:38:40 пре подне »
Someone had suggested that kourva must come from the (latin-based) Vlach language, as in curva = curve, an object forming a curve or something.

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« Одговор #9 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 02:21:39 пре подне »
Sioutista: was founded by Souliotes (Arvanites) that fled to the area as Sioutista from the Slavic name of the mountain "Kasidiaris" which refers to a goat without horns

This is a Slavic toponym, but with Albanian root. Originally it was probably Шутиште (Greek language speakers cannot pronounce Ш (sh), hence "Sioutista"), and the word "шут" is an old Slavic loanword from Albanian (there are very few of those, mostly the borrowings were in the opposite direction, from Old Slavic to Albanian), but it is very rarely used today in Serbian; original Albanian word is "shyt" (-y- in shyt is pronounced like German ü) with the meaning "without horns", and this refers mainly to domestic animals (goats, sheep, cows, etc.).

"Based on this, the largest group of Slavic invaders must have settled to the west of today's village in the position "Selio" which means village, where there was according to the inhabitants' tradition, the most ancient church of the area, dedicated to Saint Taxiarches. Of course, the Slavic invaders settled all over the village, by displacing or annihilating the weaker local residents, from whom only the women survived, who through intermarriage secured many racial qualities of the natives, with first and foremost the passing down of the Greek language to new generations".[/i]

This citation is a bit of an oversimplification, the assimilation processes between Slavs and local population were a bit more complex than a simple "male barbarians come, kill all the local men, take their women and then their women pass the Greek language to the children they've got with the barbarians".  :) Slavic tribes that settled in the Balkans during the Early Medieval period consisted of zadrugas (задруга), ie. extended families (men, women and children) linked by marriage and common descent in paternal line, so they essentialy transplanted their pre-Balkan social system to their new homeland; in the first two or three centuries (6th/7th to 9th century AD) most of the Balkan Slavs had very little contact with the local non-Slavic population which occupied higher mountainous areas or were near the sea shore, in urban settlements; Slavs occupied plains and valleys (zupas, жупа) and lived in small villages. Only from the 9th century did Slavs and non-Slavs started to mingle and merge more frequently. The Slavic dialect from Epirus probably survived to very late times, it was probably spoken even in the Ottoman period, before the population that spoke it was thoroughly hellenised; it likely was similar to the barely surviving Slavic dialects in the vicinity of Korca in Albania and on the Albanian side of Lake Prespa and Lake Ohrid.
Чињеницама против самоувереног незнања.

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« Одговор #10 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 07:21:42 пре подне »
Thank you very much, НиколаВук!

These are really important additions to what I have already read. It seemed like a little strange to me that the whole male population would be annihilated but the women would survive and marry to the Slavs. Hehe....:-) What you say about the zadrugas is very interesting!

Our village is not mountainous, it is approximately 300 m. from sea level with a lot of small agricultural plots and grazing areas around. It is built in a way at the side of the Kalamas river. Out of curiosity I will try to understand if other villages with Slavic names from our area are also mostly in plains and valleys. It is very probable.

Interesting about Sioutista. Actually people from the broader area can pronounce "Sh"  - and a lot ;-) That's why I sometimes think that it can be a leftover from an old Slavic identity. We just have to write it as Si- because there is no letter in Greek to symbolize this sound. For example, my grandmother's official :-) surname is Sioula (matronymic meaning family of a lady called Soula) but we pronounce it as "Shula".

It is very interesting that the Slavic dialect would have survived that long, makes sense...What do you think about our "unofficial" female surnames? Could be a reminiscent of the Slavic past?

I didn't know about these barely surviving dialects, thank you! Then, yes, they must be related, most probably. Are these dialects more connected to Macedonian/Bulgarian too?

Pozdrav!
« Последња измена: Јул 05, 2018, 07:24:31 пре подне Alexandra_K »

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« Одговор #11 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 11:27:47 пре подне »
Hello again!

I talked with my mother on the phone and she gave me a few other words she could think of (we don't know their etymology):

Zalonome: verb. to put a lot of weights on your shoulders
related noun: zaliki (the things you carry)

Sarmanitsa: baby crib (I looked it up now and it seems to be a Vlach word)

Gabratsa: very big cooking pot

Blana: probably some tool, but also used metaphorically to describe somebody who lacks energy, eg. is dragging his feet while walking

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #12 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 11:42:26 пре подне »
...
Blana: probably some tool, but also used metaphorically to describe somebody who lacks energy, eg. is dragging his feet while walking

This can be Blanja, a hand wood planer tool.
Kамене рабъ и госодинъ

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« Одговор #13 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 12:07:19 поподне »
Thank you very much, НиколаВук!

These are really important additions to what I have already read. It seemed like a little strange to me that the whole male population would be annihilated but the women would survive and marry to the Slavs. Hehe....:-) What you say about the zadrugas is very interesting!

Our village is not mountainous, it is approximately 300 m. from sea level with a lot of small agricultural plots and grazing areas around. It is built in a way at the side of the Kalamas river. Out of curiosity I will try to understand if other villages with Slavic names from our area are also mostly in plains and valleys. It is very probable.

Interesting about Sioutista. Actually people from the broader area can pronounce "Sh"  - and a lot ;-) That's why I sometimes think that it can be a leftover from an old Slavic identity. We just have to write it as Si- because there is no letter in Greek to symbolize this sound. For example, my grandmother's official :-) surname is Sioula (matronymic meaning family of a lady called Soula) but we pronounce it as "Shula".

It is very interesting that the Slavic dialect would have survived that long, makes sense...What do you think about our "unofficial" female surnames? Could be a reminiscent of the Slavic past?

I didn't know about these barely surviving dialects, thank you! Then, yes, they must be related, most probably. Are these dialects more connected to Macedonian/Bulgarian too?

Pozdrav!

You're welcome.  ;) I didn't know that in your local Greek dialect you have an "sh" sound, and that fact speaks more strongly in favor of late retention of local Slavic dialect, maybe even up until 18/19th century, as well as the local family names you mentioned and a good number of words. It is nearly impossible that the local population would keep so much of their Slavic linguistic heritage to the present day but speak only Greek since the Middle Ages. Slavic Epirote dialect most probably belonged to the linguistic group of Eastern South Slavic languages, such as Bulgarian, Slavic Macedonian and a number of dialects still spoken in today's Greece and Albania. Slovene and Serbo-Croatian belong to the Western South Slavic languages. Our member Pavo recently uploaded some very interesting e-books about Slavic dialects in Albania (the books are in German); the most related to the Slavic Epirote dialect are probably the ones from Boboshtica and Vernik near Korca (which is in southern Albania or Northern Epirus, as you Greeks like to call it ;) ), and then the ones from Prespa area. You can see their location on this map:



Pavo also gave download links for these books on this topic, and you can also download audio files where local Slavs speak in their dialect, so you can actually hear how that dialect sounds:

https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=180.960

Prespa - Vërnik - Boboshtica : http://www.mediafire.com/file/2p7915vbaa0nhdd/Prespa.pdf
Audio : http://www.mediafire.com/file/0ev31pum8smkgqa/Audio.rar
« Последња измена: Јул 05, 2018, 12:08:58 поподне НиколаВук »
Чињеницама против самоувереног незнања.

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #14 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 01:47:57 поподне »
Oljer, thank you. Yes, that must be it. My mother mentioned that the tool was wooden and that they were probably dragging it on the soil or something. She has the idea that they might have been attaching it to a horse, but she was not sure. And she said that if someone drags himself around like that with no energy they were calling him blana.

НиколаВук, this is all very interesting, thank you very much. Yes, the pronounciation is very characteristic: we have the "sh" sound a lot and then we cut off many of the vowels of the words (they do so also in some other areas of continental Greece mainly).

I will study the map and the links you gave me now!

I also send a message to a great Greek researcher and scholar, Dimitris Lithoksou, asking him about the period in time when it is maybe recorded that they were speaking already Greek in Tserkovista. He might have the answer, because there used to be such data about the villages kept mainly by the Turks. I suspect that it must have been already before the 19th century that they had already stopped speaking in Slavic dialect. But you are right that the lingustic assimilation could not have been so immediate. The people probably retained their language for centuries before it gradually faded away. I hope Mr Lithokskou will be able to enlighten us!

Pozdrav!
« Последња измена: Јул 05, 2018, 01:51:09 поподне Alexandra_K »

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #15 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 02:06:28 поподне »
Oljer, thank you. Yes, that must be it. My mother mentioned that the tool was wooden and that they were probably dragging it on the soil or something. She has the idea that they might have been attaching it to a horse, but she was not sure. And she said that if someone drags himself around like that with no energy they were calling him blana.

No, no horses  :). Blanja is a carpenters tool for wood processing. Like this one:
Kамене рабъ и госодинъ

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #16 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 02:16:41 поподне »
Thank you Ojler! Maybe it is indeed this for us too and my mom doesn't know ;-) She grew up in Athens :-P However she did say it was a wooden tool and that its "dragging" action can be seen metaphorically in non-energetic people. Haha...

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #17 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 05:42:55 поподне »
I managed to find an older answer of Mr Lithoksou, in which he explains that in the middle of the 19th century they were speaking Greek in the village of Tserkovista. According to him the old Slavic population became assimilated and kind of died out gradually because of diseases. I am probably oversimplifying what he said by translating it here, I am afraid.
Another author, Kyritsis, says on the other hand (might be a little too extreme?) that the ancient Greek population of the area had been almost annihilated by Romans and diseases :-) and that the Slavs took over the area later almost completely replacing the older population. So that when the Albanians came during the 14-15th centuries they ust found the hellenized Slavs in the area. A few Greek scholars seem to agree with each other though, that when the Albanians came the Slavs were already speaking Greek but were retaining all of their Slavic toponyms. The toponyms were maintained until the 20th century!

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #18 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 05:51:53 поподне »
I managed to find an older answer of Mr Lithoksou, in which he explains that in the middle of the 19th century they were speaking Greek in the village of Tserkovista. According to him the old Slavic population became assimilated and kind of died out gradually because of diseases. I am probably oversimplifying what he said by translating it here, I am afraid.
Another author, Kyritsis, says on the other hand (might be a little too extreme?) that the ancient Greek population of the area had been almost annihilated by Romans and diseases :-) and that the Slavs took over the area later almost completely replacing the older population. So that when the Albanians came during the 14-15th centuries they ust found the hellenized Slavs in the area. A few Greek scholars seem to agree with each other though, that when the Albanians came the Slavs were already speaking Greek but were retaining all of their Slavic toponyms. The toponyms were maintained until the 20th century!

I think that the Greek scholars are pushing the date of helenization of Slavic population in Epirus way back in the past. In my opinion, it is done for political and not scientific reasons. The date of their assimilation must have been in more recent times (Ottoman period, 15th to 19th century), the words and place-names you mentioned and their forms (which all sound very "recent" and that would not be a case if they stopped speaking Slavic even before 14-15th century) are very clear on that.
Чињеницама против самоувереног незнања.

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #19 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 08:11:34 поподне »
This could be possible, yes. I just trust Mr Lithoksou's judgement a lot because he is a really independent thinker and passionate about the truth, also very anti-narionalistic in all senses. You can Google him, he is really interesting. Maybe there is more to it, than what he thinks about the specific region in question (nobody knows the whole truth)  but he has a very interesting and in a way radical theory about Greece. He believes (based on history and linguistics) that the ancient Greeks were almost totally eradicated by the Romans but that their slaves (who were much more numerous than them and did not fight in wars) survived in great numbers and formed the basis of Romiosini. Namely the inhabitants of the Greek territory speaking Romeika as opposed to hellinika who then mixed considerably with Slavs, Vlachs and Arvanites (as well as other populations I would add). These slaves belonged mostly to the prehellenic populations that the Greek conquerors found in the territory of today's Greece (Pelasgi, Kares, Leleges...). He bases his theory on very concrete linguistic and historical data. In fact, even genetically speaking, the Neolithic element is still very strong in Greece - together with all the elements showing a strong admixture with Albanians, Vlachs and Slavs (and in some other areas, Italians, Western-Asians, even Arabs). I tend to trust a lot in his writings because he bases everything he says on years of meticulous research. He is not so welcome by academic scholars in Greece, considered a heretic. He's my guy ;-), really appreciate him.

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #20 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 08:19:30 поподне »
Still the toponyms, the words in the everyday vocabulary, the pronounciation and our funny local surnames versions still make me wonder...It could really have been like you say to some degree...
Lithoksou says that all these communities were living next to each other in villages or even just bunches of houses, without formal education for centuries, one language and culture influencing the other. According to him there was no such thing as hellenisation., turkification or slavicisation...just neighboring communities borrowing from each other words that would enter the context of the marketplace, and of commercial exchanges.

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #21 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 10:13:22 поподне »
There is a strong Slavic element in Epirus, population genomics are confirming that now. In southern Albania and in Greek Epirus there is a sizable percentage of haplotypes that are considered to have come to the Balkans via the Slavic settlement in Early Middle Ages (namely R1a-M458, R1a-Z280 and I2a-YP196), and that is not an accident considering all the things that we've written about on this topic.  :) Slavs didn't just settle in Epirus, Aegean Macedonia and Thessaly, they penetrated as far as Peloponnese, in fact one of the best researched Early Slavic necropolises on the Balkans is the one in Olympia. German-Hungarian archaeological team excavated that necropolis, and published their findings in this book:

https://www.scribd.com/document/68008092/Vida-T-und-Volling-Th-Das-slawische-Brandgraberfeld-von-Olympia
Чињеницама против самоувереног незнања.

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #22 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 11:14:32 поподне »
Yes, I know and I agree totally....I just try to grasp how the Slavs became gradually assimilated....and the time when this assimilation was completed, let's say.
So really in Epirus there is a strong presence of Slavic haplogroups? Because I was maybe misled into thinking that they were limited in Epirus and more strongly present in Greek Macedonia and Thrace.

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #23 послато: Јул 05, 2018, 11:19:22 поподне »
https://goo.gl/images/vLPJ7D

Is this accurate?

And this?
Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin
Northern Greeks (Thrace & Macedonia) (296 samples)
I : 21.6
R1a : 18.2
R1b : 13.2
E1b : 20.6
G2 : 4.7
J2 : 14.9
J1 : 3.4
LT : 2.7
* : 0.7

Central Greeks (Epirus & Thessaly) (127 samples)
I : 12.6
R1a : 11.8
R1b : 10.2
E1b : 31.5
G2 : 6.3
J2 : 18.1
J1 : 3.9
LT : 3.9
* : 1.6

Southern Greeks (Sterea Hellas & Peloponnese) (264 samples)
I : 12.9
R1a : 10.2
R1b : 20.5
E1b : 25.8
G2 : 3.4
J2 : 19.7
J1 : 2.3
LT : 3.8
* : 1.5

Eastern Greeks (Aegean islands & Ionia) (158 samples)
I : 11.4
R1a : 7.6
R1b : 22.8
E1b : 20.3
G2 : 8.2
J2 : 19.6
J1 : 5.1
LT : 3.2
* : 1.9

Cretan Greeks (Crete) (193 samples)
I : 13.0
R1a : 8.8
R1b : 17.1
E1b : 8.8
G2 : 10.9
J2 : 30.6
J1 : 8.3
LT : 2.6
*: -

All Greeks (1038 samples)
I : 15.1
R1a : 12.0
R1b : 16.9
E1b : 21.0
G2 : 6.3
J2 : 20.1
J1 : 4.3
LT : 3.2
*: 1.1

Are they outdated or maybe not so accurate in the first place?
« Последња измена: Јул 05, 2018, 11:22:53 поподне Alexandra_K »

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #24 послато: Јул 06, 2018, 08:27:04 пре подне »
Dobro jutro!

Here is a list of words of Slavic origin in Greek in general (not restricted to our area):

(My mom has highlighted the words my grandparents were using too)
ΣΛΑΒΙΚΕΣ ΛΕΞΕΙΣ  ΣΤΑ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΑ    ΟΤΙ ΚΙΤΡΙΝΟ ΤΟ ΧΡΗΣΙΜΟΠΟΙΟΥΣΕ Η ΜΑΝΑ ΜΟΥ

αγκιτάτορας
ασβός
αστρέχα [το γείσο της στέγης]
βάβω/μπάμπω
βαγένι
βάλτος
βαρδάρης
βεδούρα [ξύλινο δοχείο για το γάλα]
βερβερίτσα
βίδρα
βίτσα
βλάχος
βοεβόδας
βολοδέρνω [κατά το ΛΚΝ μόνο, ο Μπαμπινιώτης παράγει τη λέξη από τον βώλο του χώματος]
βότκα
βρικόλακας
γιάφκα
γκλάβα
γκλαβανή [η καταπακτή]
γκορτσιά
γουστερίτσα
γράνα [χαντάκι]
γρεντιά [ξύλινο δοκάρι]
ζαβλακώνομαι [κατά Μπαμπινιώτη μόνο, το ΛΚΝ παράγει από ζαβώνω+βλακώνω]
ζαλίκι [φορτίο, και ρ. ζαλικώνω/ζαλώνω]
ζούζουλο [ζωύφιο]
ιντελιγκέντσια
καρβέλι
καρούτα [ποτίστρα για τα ζώα]
καρτόφι [πατάτες στα ποντιακά]
καστραβέτσι [αγγούρι]
κλούβιος [κατά ΛΚΝ, ο Μπαμπινιώτης εκφράζει επιφυλάξεις]
κνούτο
κολεκτίβα
κολχόζ
κόρα
κόσα     [γεωργικό κοπτικό εργαλείο]
κοτσάνι [ο Μπαμπινιώτης θεωρεί πως είναι τουρκικό δάνειο, πιθανώς σλαβικής απώτερης αρχής]
κοτσίδα [ο Μπαμπινιώτης δίνει ελληνική ετυμολογία]
κουλάκος
κουνάβι
κούρκος
κουρνιάζω
κουτάβι
λακκούβα [με παρετυμολογία προς τον λάκκο]
λόγγος
λούτσα [κατά Μπαμπινιώτη είναι αλβανικό δάνειο]
μαγούλα
μαζούτ [το ΛΚΝ το θεωρεί δάνειο από αγγλ. ή γαλλικά, ρωσικής αρχής]
μενσεβίκος
μισίρκα [γαλοπούλα στα σερρέικα]
μόρα
μουζίκος
μουντός
μπαλαμούτι
μπάρα [με τη σημασία ‘λάκκος με νερά, λιμνούλα’]
μπέμπελη
μπολσεβίκος
μπουχός
μπράτιμος
μπροστέλα [με παρασύνδεση με τη λέξη ‘μπροστά’]
νομενκλατούρα
ντιρεκτίβα
ντόμπρος
οβορός [περιφραγμένη αυλή]
πάπρικα
περεστρόικα
πέστροφα [παρετυμ. σύνδεση με το «επιστρέφω»]
πιροσκί
πλάβα [βάρκα λιμνίσια χωρίς καρίνα]
πλόσκα [ξύλινο φλασκί]
πογκρόμ
προβοκάτσια
πρόγκα
ραβάνι [το ρυθμικό βάδισμα αλόγου, ο πλαγιοτροχισμός]
ραβασάκι
ρεκάζω
ρήσος [ο λύγκας]
ρούβλι
ρούχο
σαμοβάρι
σανός
σβάρνα
σέμπρος
σμερδάκι [χαμοδράκι, είδος ξωτικού]
σοβιέτ
σουβάλα [φυσικός ταμιευτήρας νερού]
σπούτνικ
στούμπος
τζόρας
τραντάζω [ο Μπαμπινιώτης δίνει και ελληνική εκδοχή]
τρόικα
τσαντίλα [το αραιοφαμένο σακούλι]
τσάρος
τσέλιγκας
τσέργα [βελέντζα]
τσίπα
τσίτσα [ξύλινο δοχείο για κρασί]
φράξια
χουγιάζω
 

 

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #25 послато: Јул 06, 2018, 08:47:42 пре подне »
Sorry, I tried re-highlighting the words myself from my phone because the highlighting got "lost" by copy-pasting, but I couldn't do it well. So here is the list with highlighted words as my mother did it. Just ignore the previous one, thank you.

Dobro jutro!

Here is a list of words of Slavic origin in Greek in general (not restricted to our area):

(My mom has highlighted the words my grandparents were using too)
ΣΛΑΒΙΚΕΣ ΛΕΞΕΙΣ  ΣΤΑ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΑ    ΟΤΙ ΚΙΤΡΙΝΟ ΤΟ ΧΡΗΣΙΜΟΠΟΙΟΥΣΕ Η ΜΑΝΑ ΜΟΥ

αγκιτάτορας
ασβός
αστρέχα [το γείσο της στέγης]
βάβω/μπάμπω
βαγένι
βάλτος
βαρδάρης
βεδούρα [ξύλινο δοχείο για το γάλα]
βερβερίτσα
βίδρα
βίτσα
βλάχος
βοεβόδας
βολοδέρνω [κατά το ΛΚΝ μόνο, ο Μπαμπινιώτης παράγει τη λέξη από τον βώλο του χώματος]
βότκα
βρικόλακας
γιάφκα
γκλάβα
γκλαβανή [η καταπακτή]
γκορτσιά
γουστερίτσα
γράνα [χαντάκι]
γρεντιά [ξύλινο δοκάρι]
ζαβλακώνομαι [κατά Μπαμπινιώτη μόνο, το ΛΚΝ παράγει από ζαβώνω+βλακώνω]
ζαλίκι [φορτίο, και ρ. ζαλικώνω/ζαλώνω]
ζούζουλο [ζωύφιο]
ιντελιγκέντσια
καρβέλι
καρούτα [ποτίστρα για τα ζώα]
καρτόφι [πατάτες στα ποντιακά]
καστραβέτσι [αγγούρι]
κλούβιος [κατά ΛΚΝ, ο Μπαμπινιώτης εκφράζει επιφυλάξεις]
κνούτο
κολεκτίβα
κολχόζ
κόρα
κόσα     [γεωργικό κοπτικό εργαλείο]
κοτσάνι [ο Μπαμπινιώτης θεωρεί πως είναι τουρκικό δάνειο, πιθανώς σλαβικής απώτερης αρχής]
κοτσίδα [ο Μ
παμπινιώτης δίνει ελληνική ετυμολογία]
κουλάκος
κουνάβι
κούρκος
κουρνιάζω
κουτάβι
λακκούβα [με παρετυμολογία προς τον λάκκο]
λόγγος
λούτσα [κατά Μπαμπινιώτη είναι αλβανικό δάνειο]
μαγούλα

μαζούτ [το ΛΚΝ το θεωρεί δάνειο από αγγλ. ή γαλλικά, ρωσικής αρχής]
μενσεβίκος
μισίρκα [γαλοπούλα στα σερρέικα]
μόρα
μουζίκος
μουντός
μπαλαμούτι
μπάρα [με τη σημασία ‘λάκκος με νερά, λιμνούλα’]
μπέμπελη

μπολσεβίκος
μπουχός
μπράτιμος
μπροστέλα [με παρασύνδεση με τη λέξη ‘μπροστά’]
νομενκλατούρα
ντιρεκτίβα
ντόμπρος
οβορός [περιφραγμένη αυλή]
πάπρικα
περεστρόικα
πέστροφα [παρετυμ. σύνδεση με το «επιστρέφω»]
πιροσκί
πλάβα [βάρκα λιμνίσια χωρίς καρίνα]
πλόσκα [
ξύλινο φλασκί]
πογκρόμ
προβοκάτσια
πρόγκα
ραβάνι [το ρυθμικό βάδισμα αλόγου, ο πλαγιοτροχισμός]
ραβασάκι
ρεκάζω
ρήσος [ο λύγκας]
ρούβλι
ρούχο
σαμοβάρι
σανός
σβάρνα
σέμπρος

σμερδάκι [χαμοδράκι, είδος ξωτικού]
σοβιέτ
σουβάλα [φυσικός ταμιευτήρας νερού]
σπούτνικ
στούμπος
τζόρας

τραντάζω [ο Μπαμπινιώτης δίνει και ελληνική εκδοχή]
τρόικα
τσαντίλα [το αραιοφαμένο σακούλι]
τσάρος
τσέλιγκας
τσέργα [βελέντζα]
τσίπα
τσίτσα
[ξύλινο δοχείο για κρασί]
φράξια
χουγιάζω
« Последња измена: Јул 06, 2018, 08:51:04 пре подне Alexandra_K »

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #26 послато: Јул 06, 2018, 01:50:27 поподне »
https://goo.gl/images/vLPJ7D

Is this accurate?

And this?
Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin
Northern Greeks (Thrace & Macedonia) (296 samples)
I : 21.6
R1a : 18.2
R1b : 13.2
E1b : 20.6
G2 : 4.7
J2 : 14.9
J1 : 3.4
LT : 2.7
* : 0.7

Central Greeks (Epirus & Thessaly) (127 samples)
I : 12.6
R1a : 11.8
R1b : 10.2
E1b : 31.5
G2 : 6.3
J2 : 18.1
J1 : 3.9
LT : 3.9
* : 1.6

Southern Greeks (Sterea Hellas & Peloponnese) (264 samples)
I : 12.9
R1a : 10.2
R1b : 20.5
E1b : 25.8
G2 : 3.4
J2 : 19.7
J1 : 2.3
LT : 3.8
* : 1.5

Eastern Greeks (Aegean islands & Ionia) (158 samples)
I : 11.4
R1a : 7.6
R1b : 22.8
E1b : 20.3
G2 : 8.2
J2 : 19.6
J1 : 5.1
LT : 3.2
* : 1.9

Cretan Greeks (Crete) (193 samples)
I : 13.0
R1a : 8.8
R1b : 17.1
E1b : 8.8
G2 : 10.9
J2 : 30.6
J1 : 8.3
LT : 2.6
*: -

All Greeks (1038 samples)
I : 15.1
R1a : 12.0
R1b : 16.9
E1b : 21.0
G2 : 6.3
J2 : 20.1
J1 : 4.3
LT : 3.2
*: 1.1

Are they outdated or maybe not so accurate in the first place?

I think maybe it's outdated, but it's probably accurate.  ;) The majority of haplogroup I is probably I2a Dinaric (I2a-YP196), and the majority of R1a is probably M458 and Z280.
Чињеницама против самоувереног незнања.

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #27 послато: Јул 06, 2018, 02:11:01 поподне »
Thank you, Nikola

A bit unexpected for Epirus to have rather low frequencies of I and R1a, for example Crete seems to have higher I than Epirus. I feel a bit ignorant on this level, I feel I miss a lot of info in order to understand it well.

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #28 послато: Јул 06, 2018, 03:11:06 поподне »
Thank you, Nikola

A bit unexpected for Epirus to have rather low frequencies of I and R1a, for example Crete seems to have higher I than Epirus. I feel a bit ignorant on this level, I feel I miss a lot of info in order to understand it well.

Well, it can hardly be expected that "Slavic" haplogroups in Epirus would have higher percentages than haplogroups that are typical for Mediterranean and Greeks in general, but even their presence (over 10%) is telling. I think you should look up this topic:

https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=95.0

There is some data on Greek population genomics on that topic that maybe isn't as outdated as the one you posted on this topic.  :)
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« Одговор #29 послато: Јул 06, 2018, 04:03:59 поподне »
Thank you! :-) I will take a look now!

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« Одговор #30 послато: Јул 06, 2018, 04:16:20 поподне »
I will look at it again later when I will be at home in order to use the automatic translation. I still read Cyrillic veeery slowly :-) When it is written with Latin characters I can read it at a better pace and start to be able to understand a little.

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #31 послато: Јул 06, 2018, 04:58:45 поподне »
I will look at it again later when I will be at home in order to use the automatic translation. I still read Cyrillic veeery slowly :-) When it is written with Latin characters I can read it at a better pace and start to be able to understand a little.

Cyrillic script is not that different from the Greek alphabet, in fact, many of the letters are the same.  ;) I think you just need a period of adjustment, that's all.  :) Cyrillic script and Greek alphabet are more closely related than either of them are to the Latin script.
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« Одговор #32 послато: Јул 06, 2018, 06:20:29 поподне »
True, I think I need a period of adjustment  :) I mix the и and the н a lot still for example. For us it's almost the other way around. I was taught the English alphabet already at 5 so it feels very familiar. And I speak and write also in Dutch and Italian and a little bit in German. So yes, I need to adjust for sure :) Hope it's not going to take me ages... :P

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« Одговор #33 послато: Јул 08, 2018, 05:58:41 поподне »
Hello again,
I followed quite a few pages of the thread about Greece, thank you, it is very interesting!
I would like to ask you about some other toponyms (of villages not that far away from ours). Somebody mentions them as Slavic (and I believe he must be right) but except for about 2 of them, there is no info on the internet. Since there is somebody that doubts their Slavic origin :-), I would like to ask you guys just to be sure.

Kosovista (this one I confirmed as "Slavic")
Koukoulitsa?
Gretsista (this too I have confirmed)
Lepiana (from lep??)
Schoretsena/Schoretsena (I put "CH" instead of the Serbian "h" or "х")

Thank you!
« Последња измена: Јул 08, 2018, 06:01:00 поподне Alexandra_K »

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #34 послато: Јул 10, 2018, 02:11:45 поподне »
Hello again,
I followed quite a few pages of the thread about Greece, thank you, it is very interesting!
I would like to ask you about some other toponyms (of villages not that far away from ours). Somebody mentions them as Slavic (and I believe he must be right) but except for about 2 of them, there is no info on the internet. Since there is somebody that doubts their Slavic origin :-), I would like to ask you guys just to be sure.

Kosovista (this one I confirmed as "Slavic")
Koukoulitsa?
Gretsista (this too I have confirmed)
Lepiana (from lep??)
Schoretsena/Schoretsena (I put "CH" instead of the Serbian "h" or "х")

Thank you!

Kosovista is probably from the term for a blackbird, "кос". It has the same root as Kosovo. Koukoulitsa is maybe from the Greek term for doll, "koukla"? That term is present in the Bulgarian language also, as a loanword from Greek with the same meaning, and it's often used when naming certain mountain peaks or hilltops. I don't know why it is used in that way.  :) Although, maybe it doesn't come from that word at all, but it sure has a recognizable Slavic ending (-itsa). Gretsista also has a Slavic ending, but I have no idea what the first part would mean (Gretsi), maybe Greeks? So it would then mean "the Greek place" or "the place of Greeks", but I'm not sure if that's the right etymology. Lepiana and Schoretsena are really an enigma for me, and I don't think that Lepiana has anything to do with "леп", which can mean "beautiful" or "daub" (as in "wattle and daub", construction technique for building simple houses), depending on context. I think that these last two terms are not Slavic in origin.
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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #35 послато: Јул 10, 2018, 07:53:09 поподне »
Ćao Nikola,

Hvala! :-)

For Kosovitsa I found indeed the same explanation as you did. BTW I think that the same black bird in Greek is called kotsifi (its etymology seems to be ancient Greek).  This  village name must really be Slavic.

For Koukoulitsa I have my doubts too. It has the typical slavic ending -itsa. Koukouli in Greek means cocoon (eg. of silk worms). Koukla is indeed doll and the two words (cocoon+doll) seem to be related. Also I think that in Albanian kukulla is doll. I did not know that places like mountain peaks and hilltops are named like this in Bulgarian. This could also be connected to the name of the village.

According to an explanation I found, Gretsista indeed means place of the Greeks (probably Slavic).

About Lepiana and Schoretsena I wasn't able to find anything more specific. The connection with lep was just my wild guess. :-)

Thank you again!

Thank you again!

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #36 послато: Јул 10, 2018, 08:54:29 поподне »
Ćao Nikola,

Hvala! :-)

For Kosovitsa I found indeed the same explanation as you did. BTW I think that the same black bird in Greek is called kotsifi (its etymology seems to be ancient Greek).  This  village name must really be Slavic.

For Koukoulitsa I have my doubts too. It has the typical slavic ending -itsa. Koukouli in Greek means cocoon (eg. of silk worms). Koukla is indeed doll and the two words (cocoon+doll) seem to be related. Also I think that in Albanian kukulla is doll. I did not know that places like mountain peaks and hilltops are named like this in Bulgarian. This could also be connected to the name of the village.

According to an explanation I found, Gretsista indeed means place of the Greeks (probably Slavic).

About Lepiana and Schoretsena I wasn't able to find anything more specific. The connection with lep was just my wild guess. :-)

Thank you again!

Thank you again!

You're welcome!  ;)
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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #37 послато: Јул 12, 2018, 02:21:15 пре подне »
Ćao Nikola,

Hvala! :-)

For Kosovitsa I found indeed the same explanation as you did. BTW I think that the same black bird in Greek is called kotsifi (its etymology seems to be ancient Greek).  This  village name must really be Slavic.

For Koukoulitsa I have my doubts too. It has the typical slavic ending -itsa. Koukouli in Greek means cocoon (eg. of silk worms). Koukla is indeed doll and the two words (cocoon+doll) seem to be related. Also I think that in Albanian kukulla is doll. I did not know that places like mountain peaks and hilltops are named like this in Bulgarian. This could also be connected to the name of the village.

According to an explanation I found, Gretsista indeed means place of the Greeks (probably Slavic).

About Lepiana and Schoretsena I wasn't able to find anything more specific. The connection with lep was just my wild guess. :-)

Thank you again!

Thank you again!

Kukuljica in Serbo-Croatian means the pupal stage of insect growth, after the larval stage. I believe it it etymologically similar to the Greek koukouli. Kukuljica is in fact a toponym in Bosnia and Herzegovina - see http://www.geonames.org/search.html?q=kukuljica Similar toponyms include Kukulje in Montenegro and Kukulja in Bulgaria.

Grecište or Grečište could indeed indicate place of the Greeks, but the construction seems off. In Serbo-Croatian and Macedonian, the construction would be Grcište, or even Grčište. The Bulgarian variation for Grčište is Гърчище, or roughly Garčište. The variation seen in Greece must come from some dialectal construction denoting the Greeks as Greci, not Grci or Garci as seen in the standardized South Slavic languages. It's certainly not unknown that Greece has been called Grecija by the Slavs, so the term Greci shouldn't be totally foreign to us.

An interesting result showed up when searching "гречиште" (grečište), which side by side translations of phrases in Macedonian, Albanian and Turkish. The term гречиште corresponds to Albanian "greqishte", which is a reflex of the word "greqisht" signifying the adjective "Greek", in this case specifically Greek language. (source)

There is another toponym, in Russia and Ukraine, гречище (grečišče), but I'm not sure the meaning of the toponym.

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« Одговор #38 послато: Јул 12, 2018, 07:13:22 пре подне »
Zdravo Karadag,

Thank you very much for the very interesting information. In the Greek language there is no way someone could pronounce  Grcišste without any vowel in between, :-) so it's very probable that the initial word just took an extra vowel in between. Otherwise, it could be indeed connected to these other options you mention. Interesting that a similar version exists as toponym in Russia and the Ukraine.

Kukuljica is another interesting case. Yes, koukouli has exactly the same meaning in Greek, I wonder what is its etymology ( I looked it up a few days ago and managed to forget already :-) ).

Thank you again for the great input!

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« Одговор #39 послато: Јул 12, 2018, 07:31:28 пре подне »
The etymology of koukouli is Latin so it could be that we both borrowed it from the Latin language. The construction of the toponym with the ending -itsa is typical of Slavic toponyms I would think. The same toponym exists in Bosnia and Herzegovina etc. as you say. That is also why the village has been renamed to Koukoulia (plural of koukouli) which sounds and is more Greek.

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #40 послато: Јул 12, 2018, 05:22:34 поподне »
Grecište or Grečište could indeed indicate place of the Greeks, but the construction seems off. In Serbo-Croatian and Macedonian, the construction would be Grcište, or even Grčište. The Bulgarian variation for Grčište is Гърчище, or roughly Garčište. The variation seen in Greece must come from some dialectal construction denoting the Greeks as Greci, not Grci or Garci as seen in the standardized South Slavic languages. It's certainly not unknown that Greece has been called Grecija by the Slavs, so the term Greci shouldn't be totally foreign to us.

An interesting result showed up when searching "гречиште" (grečište), which side by side translations of phrases in Macedonian, Albanian and Turkish. The term гречиште corresponds to Albanian "greqishte", which is a reflex of the word "greqisht" signifying the adjective "Greek", in this case specifically Greek language. (source)

There is another toponym, in Russia and Ukraine, гречище (grečišče), but I'm not sure the meaning of the toponym.

In fact, the name for Greece in Bulgarian is Гърция (Gŭrtsiya) and in Slavic Macedonian it's Грција (Grtsiya). Since Slavic Epirote dialect must have been closely related to Slavic Macedonian, it's no wonder that there is a form Gretsista (with ц-ts and not ч-ch), and this extra "e" vowel was probably interpolated by Greek speakers, as Alexandra noted. There is also the possibility that it is only an official name (with ts, since most Greeks cannot pronounce ch, and s, since they can't pronounce sh), and that local inhabitants pronounce the name as Грчиште/Грчишта, or some variant of it, but I'm more inclined that it is indeed pronounced as Грци(ш)ста.

The etymology of koukouli is Latin so it could be that we both borrowed it from the Latin language. The construction of the toponym with the ending -itsa is typical of Slavic toponyms I would think. The same toponym exists in Bosnia and Herzegovina etc. as you say. That is also why the village has been renamed to Koukoulia (plural of koukouli) which sounds and is more Greek.

This example once more shows that the Greeks are the most potent assimilators in the Balkans, and I truly envy you for that.  ;) P.S. I'm not ironic.  :)
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« Одговор #41 послато: Јул 12, 2018, 06:42:18 поподне »
Hey guys!

To be honest I don't know how my grandparents would have pronounced Gretsista...however if I try to imagine them doing so, based on my memory of their pronounciation, I would imagine something like Gr(e)tsista with a faint "e" but most probably with an "s" and "ts".
In other cases, like Sioutista, I can vividly hear them say Shutsta in my mind. Also many "š, ž and č" sounds when talking in general (and disappearing vowels), as I wrote once before.
As far as our force as assimilators is concerned, I am not always happy or proud about it...Like, in the case of the renamed toponyms, foreign-sounding surnames changed to others that sound "Greek" and the vanishing of the local dialects, I personally feel very sorry that a big part of our history and heritage is casted away like that. :-(

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« Одговор #42 послато: Јул 12, 2018, 07:28:07 поподне »
Hello again,

In relation to my question about the Vajunite and/or other historical Slavic presence in our area I would like to post my admixture results by Lukasz's (Macuga) in order to ask you if they can indicate the above. I consider them to be the most detailed and accurate of my results, as far as I can understand. I have posted the map and diagrams from LM genetics in this other thread I started. Just a reminder in order to better understand the results, that my maternal family has known Vlach and Arvanite roots and I suspect that my dad's family (from Kefalonia and Kea) although islanders also have some more limited Arvanite and maybe even Slavic admixture (according to some of his ethnicity estimates and based on his DNA relatives).
Since I do not know very well how to "read" and interpret such results (incl. the oracles), I would like to request you to give me your opinion. As you will see, except for my Greek/Mediterranean ancestry there must be a dominant Arvanite element in me (or at least, that is how I understand it). Lukasz told me that South etc. Romanian is connected to Vlach ancestry in general, if I remember right, since he only has one Greek Vlach sample. You will be able to see also some Serbian, North Macedonian, Bosniak, Moldavian etc. percentages in the oracles. I wonder if these could indeed be an expression of our Vajunite history and/or even of the Bulgarian and then Serbian occupation of the village. (Although someone has told me that the Serbs didn't really settle in these areas as the Bulgarians did). Or maybe, one should not take this information literally?
Besides, there could be some unknown Jewish admixture in the family judging from these reports (or maybe it is as Lukasz writes, another expression of Greek Islander/Sicilian ancestry).
The thing is I don't really know how to interpret oracles etc. and I would love to gain some more insight.


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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #43 послато: Јул 12, 2018, 07:28:55 поподне »
I. Population admixture section

Bear in mind that closely related populations will often turn up instead of the actual populations that make up your background (i.e Sw-England or FR_Britanny).
Jewish admixture can at times be masked or mistaken for Sicilian or Greek Islander ancestry, or vice-versa.

nMonte3 oracle (all references)

nMonte3 provides you with frequencies related to your recent ancestry, and works best for individiuals of a non-mixed background. It is also very adept at detecting subtle regional differences.

"1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"

GR_Thessaly   GR_Eubea GR_Thesalloniki Albanians_FYROM   GR_Peloponese   South_Albania   North_Albania   GR_Macedonia

10.30555   10.40562   10.74388   10.95302   11.32797   11.77166   12.12910   12.25149

"2. FULL TABLE nMONTE" (estimated percentages)

"distance%=9.5609"

GR_Eubea,34.4
Albanians_FYROM,26.2
GR_Thessaly,20.8
Sicily_Ragusa,7.6
GR_Thesalloniki,3.6
Belarus_Ashkenazy,2
South_Romania,1
Syrian_Jew,1
Palestina,0.4
Poland_Ashkenazy,0.4
AustroHungarian_Ashkenazy1,0.2
Carpathian_Rusyns,0.2
GR_Central_Anatolia,0.2
Lebanon_Muslim,0.2
Macedonia_FYROM,0.2
Moldavia,0.2
PL_Masovia,0.2
Pl_South_(Małopolska),0.2
Samaritan,0.2
Thüringen,0.2
Tunisian_Jew,0.2
Ukraine_Zhytomyr,0.2
 


4.07.2018

author: Lukasz Macuga - www.lm-genetics.ovh

targeted nMonte (without Italian, Jewish and West-Asian references)

"distance%=9.7589"

GR_Eubea,43.4
GR_Thessaly,23.4
Albanians_FYROM,21.2
GR_Thesalloniki,6.4
GR_Kythira,1.8
Cyprus,0.8
GR_Ikaria,0.8
GR_Crete,0.6
Ukraine_Chernigov,0.6
Bataheen_ArabSudan,0.2
Carpathian_Rusyns,0.2
Messiria_ArabSudan,0.2
Nubian_Halfawieen,0.2

Pl_South_(Małopolska),0.2

targeted nMonte (without GR_Eubea)

"distance%=10.0284"

GR_Thessaly,45.6
Albanians_FYROM,29
GR_Thesalloniki,13
GR_Kythira,5
GR_Cyclades,2.8
Cyprus,1.6
GR_Crete,0.8
Bataheen_ArabSudan,0.4
Moldavia,0.4
GR_Ikaria,0.2
GR_Kalymnos,0.2
Nuer,0.2
RU_Orel,0.2
Saxony,0.2
Thüringen,0.2
Ukraine_Chernivtsi,0.2


Ван мреже Alexandra_K

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #44 послато: Јул 12, 2018, 07:29:07 поподне »
Admix4 oracle (two methods, one of them is more speculative) -   all references

The oracle works in a similar way to the Gedmatch Oracles, though the estimates here are far more robust. One shouldn‘t take all of them literaly, but rather as extreme examples of possible distant admixtures. Admix4 is a different tool which is similar to the Gedmatch oracles. it compares your frequencies to the list of most similar averages ( The same process as nMonte single item distances) or models you as a combination (two-way, three-way, or four- way) of different populations. In some cases it will be in line with the actual ethnic combination you inherited from your parents and grandparents ancestries. It may be the case that different populations show up in each oracle, especially for people of a mixed background.

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 GR_Thessaly @ 10,30949
2 GR_Eubea @ 10,408763
3 GR_Thesalloniki @ 10,748317
4 Albanians_FYROM @ 10,95492
5 GR_Peloponese @ 11,332131
6   South_Albania @ 11,773309
7 North_Albania @ 12,131989
8 GR_Macedonia @ 12,256992
9 GR_Central @ 12,663681
10 Kosovo @ 13,082208
500 iterations.

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 GR_Thessaly+GR_Eubea @ 9,891697
2 Sicily_Ragusa+Macedonia_FYROM @ 9,923604
3 GR_Eubea+Albanians_FYROM @ 9,966994
4 GR_Thesalloniki+GR_Eubea @ 9,994439
5 Sicily_Ragusa+Albanians_FYROM @ 10,096013
6   Albanians_FYROM+Belarus_Ashkenazy @ 10,193675
7 Sicily_Ragusa+Montenegro @ 10,209045
8 Sicily_Ragusa+South_Romania @ 10,272857
9 GR_Thesalloniki+GR_Thessaly @ 10,295883
10 GR_Thessaly+GR_Thessaly @ 10,30949
125250 iterations.

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Sicily_Ragusa +25% Serbia +25% Albanians_FYROM @ 9,589384
2 50% Albanians_FYROM +25% Macedonia_FYROM +25% Syrian_Jew @ 9,599098
3   50% Sicily_Ragusa +25% South-West_Romania +25% Albanians_FYROM @ 9,600608
4 50% Sicily_Ragusa +25% Moldavia +25% Albanians_FYROM @ 9,614162
5 50% Albanians_FYROM +25% GR_Eubea +25% Belarus_Ashkenazy @ 9,634471 6 50% Albanians_FYROM +25% Montenegro +25% Syrian_Jew @ 9,646428
7 50% Albanians_FYROM +25% Serbia +25% Syrian_Jew @ 9,65853
8 50% Albanians_FYROM +25% Sicily_Ragusa +25% GR_Eubea @ 9,679012 9 50% Sicily_Ragusa +25% Bosniaks +25% Albanians_FYROM @ 9,683546
10 50% Sicily_Ragusa +25% Western_Serbians +25% Albanians_FYROM @ 9,692027 54451531 iterations.
 


4.07.2018

author: Lukasz Macuga - www.lm-genetics.ovh


Using 4 populations approximation:
1   Sicily_Ragusa+GR_Eubea+Macedonia_FYROM+Albanians_FYROM @ 9,561525
2 Sicily_Ragusa+GR_Eubea+South_Romania+Albanians_FYROM @ 9,567721 3 Sicily_Ragusa+Sicily_Ragusa+Serbia+Albanians_FYROM @ 9,589384
4 Macedonia_FYROM+Albanians_FYROM+Albanians_FYROM+Syrian_Jew @ 9,599098 5 Sicily_Ragusa+Sicily_Ragusa+South-West_Romania+Albanians_FYROM @ 9,600608 6 Sicily_Ragusa+Sicily_Ragusa+Moldavia+Albanians_FYROM @ 9,614162
7 GR_Eubea+Albanians_FYROM+Albanians_FYROM+Belarus_Ashkenazy @ 9,634471 8 Montenegro+Albanians_FYROM+Albanians_FYROM+Syrian_Jew @ 9,646428
9 Serbia+Albanians_FYROM+Albanians_FYROM+Syrian_Jew @ 9,65853
10 Sicily_Ragusa+GR_Thessaly+GR_Eubea+Albanians_FYROM @ 9,661293
11 Sicily_Ragusa+GR_Eubea+South-West_Romania+Albanians_FYROM @ 9,672054 12 Sicily_Ragusa+GR_Eubea+Albanians_FYROM+Albanians_FYROM @ 9,679012 13 Sicily_Ragusa+GR_Thessaly+GR_Eubea+Macedonia_FYROM @ 9,679203
14 Sicily_Ragusa+Sicily_Ragusa+Bosniaks+Albanians_FYROM @ 9,683546
15 Sicily_Ragusa+Sicily_Ragusa+Western_Serbians+Albanians_FYROM @ 9,692027
16 Sicily_Ragusa+Sicily_Ragusa+Macedonia_FYROM+Albanians_FYROM @ 9,692146 17 GR_Eubea+Serbia+Albanians_FYROM+Syrian_Jew @ 9,699668
18 Sicily_Ragusa+GR_Thesalloniki+GR_Eubea+Albanians_FYROM @ 9,703887 19 Sicily_Ragusa+Sicily_Ragusa+Montenegro+Albanians_FYROM @ 9,706108 20 GR_Eubea+Montenegro+Albanians_FYROM+Syrian_Jew @ 9,708369 1486666276 iterations.

Gaussian method.
Noise dispersion set to 0,130062

Using 1 population approximation:
1   South_Albania @ 4,504369
2 GR_Eubea @ 4,624628
3 Albanians_FYROM @ 4,650313
4 GR_Thesalloniki @ 4,68942
5 GR_Peloponese @ 4,892581
6 North_Albania @ 4,943828
7 GR_Macedonia @ 4,949938
8 GR_Central @ 5,018836
9 GR_Thessaly @ 5,23815
10 IT_Abruzzo @ 5,410556
500 iterations.

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 GR_Ikaria+Albanians_FYROM @ 4,210856
2 GR_Eubea+South_Albania @ 4,252424
3   IT_Abruzzo+Albanians_FYROM @ 4,299556
4 GR_Chios+Albanians_FYROM @ 4,326917
5 GR_Ipeiros+GR_Eubea @ 4,353834
6 GR_Eubea+North_Albania @ 4,372692
7 GR_Eubea+Albanians_FYROM @ 4,379363
8 GR_Thesalloniki+GR_Eubea @ 4,381437
9 GR_Ikaria+North_Albania @ 4,387392
10 IT_Campania+Albanians_FYROM @ 4,417066
125250 iterations.

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Albanians_FYROM +25% GR_Ipeiros +25% GR_Ikaria @ 4,115378
2 50% Albanians_FYROM +25% GR_Eubea +25% GR_Ikaria @ 4,12872
3 50% Albanians_FYROM +25% GR_Ikaria +25% Albanians_FYROM @ 4,153111
4   50% Albanians_FYROM +25% GR_Ikaria +25% South_Albania @ 4,165457
5 50% Albanians_FYROM +25% GR_Ikaria +25% North_Albania @ 4,191655 6 50% South_Albania +25% GR_Eubea +25% GR_Ikaria @ 4,208069
7 50% GR_Ikaria +25% Albanians_FYROM +25% Albanians_FYROM @ 4,210856 8 50% GR_Eubea +25% GR_Ikaria +25% Albanians_FYROM @ 4,212722
9 50% Albanians_FYROM +25% IT_Abruzzo +25% GR_Ikaria @ 4,215582
10 50% South_Albania +25% GR_Ikaria +25% Albanians_FYROM @ 4,218749 58979509 iterations.
[/i]

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« Одговор #45 послато: Јул 13, 2018, 08:33:13 пре подне »
Hello guys,

I am coming back to the topic of Koukoulitsa, since I found out some new info. I am copying here my related answer from another forum:

"Now, regarding the interrelated words koukoula (hood), koukouli (cocoon) and koukla (doll) (also the verb "koukoulono"=to cover/cover up). Greek speakers can read a very interesting article by Sarantakos about the connection among the three words here https://sarantakos.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/koukoulai/.
Their etymology is the Latin cuculla meaning hood of monks/clergy as in the Bulgarian example above. This was its first use in Greek too. Then its meaning expanded also to cocoon (koukouli) and doll (koukla). The cocoon covers or wraps up the larvae whereas the first dolls were made of wrapped up pieces of cloth (the face was painted on the cloth's surface wrapped around the bulk of cloth which formed the head of the doll). My grandmother from Epirus used to make numerous dolls like that for me when I was a child.
The Latin word cuculla (which must have been borrowed also in the Albanian language as well as in Slavic languages to signify any of the above meanings) was originally probably borrowed from the "Galatian" (Gaul) language according to Sarantakos.
Now, toponyms all over the Balkans (maybe mostly of Slavic origin) containing some form of Koukouli/Koukoula etc. must be related either to silk worms indeed or (since it was mentioned that it is often toponyms given to places on hill or mountain tops) they must be referring to the village or place as a "hood" (according to my interpretation) that kind of covers the top (head) of the mountain."

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« Одговор #46 послато: Јул 13, 2018, 09:34:56 пре подне »
I thought now you might be interested also in the previous part of the same conversation on eupedia about the other words we talked about together. I presented your very helpful answers too (thank you!). I paste it below:

"- Quote Originally Posted by Alexandra_K View Post
Hello, Laberia!
Yes, sure. I don't know if I made any typos (I make quite a lot of them, sorry, it is half the fault of my disturbing automatic correction). But the actual names are Kosovista, Gretsista and Koukoulitsa. So the first two are -ista and the third -itsa.
Thank you. Probably the prediction on of the phone if you are typing from a cell phone.
The ending -ista(isht-a in Alb) is Albanian, meanwhile -itsa(ic-a in Alb) is slavic.
Probably Kosovista is a slavic toponym with an Albanian suffix. Meanwhile Gretsista in my opinion is Albanian. And here i want to quote you from one of your previous posts whe you have noticed this:
An interesting result showed up when searching "гречиште" (grečište), which side by side translations of phrases in Macedonian, Albanian and Turkish. The term гречиште corresponds to Albanian "greqishte", which is a reflex of the word "greqisht" signifying the adjective "Greek", in this case specifically Greek language. (source)
You are very correct. In albanian we use to say greqisht for the greek language. But in some part of Albania there are some subdialects where they use to say ç and not q and viceversa but not in this case, i.e. greqisht. For example the English word red in Albanian is kuqe but some people use to say kuçe and probably this the explanation of one of the most used Albanian surnames and toponims, Kuqi, Kuçi, that can be found among Albanians, Arvanites and Arberesh( they use to say Cuccia).
q = [c] voiceless palatal stop Albanian
ç = It represents the voiceless postalveolar affricate /t͡ʃ/ in the following languages: the 4th letter of the Albanian alphabet.

Albanian alphabet
The letter Q
The letter Ç
Meanwhile the word kukulla in Albanian is doll.
This is my opinion but i am not a linguist and the ethymology of the names and toponymus it`s not a game but a serious thing. For example our best linguist Eqerem Çabej first of all was an expert in etymology.
I hope i have been helpful, but knowing my flaws in English, i have some doubts. lol

- Concerning Koukoulitsa


кѹкѹл҄ь
кѹкѹл҄ь - м
Черна гугла, качулка, която се носи от монах с висок чин (black hood,worn by a high-ranking monk)
Gr. κουκούλλιον От лат cuculla кокѹль Нвб(NewBulg.) кукул диал(dialect) Кукуля МИ Кукулът МИКукалйето МИ Кукала МИ Кукулят МИ (toponyms)


...comp.to bulg.dial. "гугла". Nowadays it would have sounded like "Guglitsa"...


- Hello Laberia,

Thank you! Well I just wrote you an answer that got lost in cyberspace, I will try writing this again...:-(
So it seems that these toponyms could be a combination of Slavic and Arvanite words. This sounds logic. The Arvanite presence is very considerable in the broader area of Epirus. The comment about the word "greqisht" was not mine but a Serbian guy's who knows a lot on such matters. I will give him your feedback! Judging from all this info, I too tend to think that the toponym Gretsista could be of Arvanite origin.
Are you sure though that the ending -ista is only Albanian and not also Slavic in some cases as td120 says in his previous comment? The village where we come from in Epirus was called Tserkovista and this was a Slavic toponym (the village was a Vajunite settlement in the beginning and later it was conquered by Bulgarians and then Serbs). I have even read somewhere that the Slavic ending -ica is sometimes changed to -ista in Greek. I don't know what is more correct though and you are 100% right in saying that analyzing toponyms is a serious task entailing deep etymological and linguistic knowledge.
Concerning the words, koukoula, koukouli and koukla which are all interrelated (and to which also the Albanian word "kukulla" is connected, I will write again in my next post answering to td120 and Yetos.
The Albanian word "kuqi" is contained in Greek Arvanite toponyms and surnames, eg. Kriekouki/Kriekoukis (the first one being the toponym and the second one the surname)."
« Последња измена: Јул 13, 2018, 09:38:11 пре подне Alexandra_K »

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« Одговор #47 послато: Јул 13, 2018, 09:36:38 пре подне »
Hello guys,

I am coming back to the topic of Koukoulitsa, since I found out some new info. I am copying here my related answer from another forum:

"Now, regarding the interrelated words koukoula (hood), koukouli (cocoon) and koukla (doll) (also the verb "koukoulono"=to cover/cover up). Greek speakers can read a very interesting article by Sarantakos about the connection among the three words here https://sarantakos.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/koukoulai/.
Their etymology is the Latin cuculla meaning hood of monks/clergy as in the Bulgarian example above. This was its first use in Greek too. Then its meaning expanded also to cocoon (koukouli) and doll (koukla). The cocoon covers or wraps up the larvae whereas the first dolls were made of wrapped up pieces of cloth (the face was painted on the cloth's surface wrapped around the bulk of cloth which formed the head of the doll). My grandmother from Epirus used to make numerous dolls like that for me when I was a child.
The Latin word cuculla (which must have been borrowed also in the Albanian language as well as in Slavic languages to signify any of the above meanings) was originally probably borrowed from the "Galatian" (Gaul) language according to Sarantakos.
Now, toponyms all over the Balkans (maybe mostly of Slavic origin) containing some form of Koukouli/Koukoula etc. must be related either to silk worms indeed or (since it was mentioned that it is often toponyms given to places on hill or mountain tops) they must be referring to the village or place as a "hood" (according to my interpretation) that kind of covers the top (head) of the mountain."

Yes, кукуљица also means "hood" in Serbian language, but it's mostly used in western Serbian regions (Bosnia and Herzegovina, Krajina). Good insight for hilltops and mountain peaks.  ;) It's probably correct.
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« Одговор #48 послато: Јул 13, 2018, 09:52:51 пре подне »
Thank you, Nikola, I am glad that you think that it is a good insight  :)

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« Одговор #49 послато: Јул 13, 2018, 10:30:05 пре подне »
I checked it and the village named Koukoulitsa in the past (now Koukoulia) and anothe one in Zagori (north of Ioannina) named Koukouli are at 700 and 1248 meters respectively. They keep mentioning cocoon and silk worms or even  large rocks (?) as etynmologies,  always from the Latin cuculla, but I think that they haven't gotten into account the info that you gave me which is very useful. There is another one near our village named Kouklioi (it is mentioned that it comes again from koukouli). This one is at 400 m. I couldn't understand if it is at the top of a hill in this case. They again give the explanation of silk worms mentioning as proof the existence of many mouries (berry trees?) In the village.
I don't know about this last one but I tend to think that the basis is the Latin cuculla which the Slavs borrowed as well creating toponyms such as Koukoulitsa etc. and that we still have variations of these toponyms linked to tops/peaks in Greece which were originally Slavic. Then when renaming the villages probably the Greeks have not been aware of this significance and they have been renaming on the basis of koukouli= cocoon in every case. This is just my hypothesis of course, could be wrong!

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« Одговор #50 послато: Јул 13, 2018, 11:53:04 пре подне »
Actually, the endings -iste/ista in Greek toponyms are from Slavic -иште/ишта (-ishte/ishta), and Slavic toponyms in Albania also have this ending, ergo, it does not come from Albanian language. That suffix is not limited only to the Balkans, it's widespread in placenames in Eastern and Central Europe also, wherever there was a Slavic settlement. Examples - црквиште, селиште, буњиште (tsrkvishte, selishte, bunyishte - "former church place", "former village", "place of garbage disposal"), etc. There is an Albanian suffix which is similar to -иште, and that's -isht, it's used when you want to form an adjective (for example, greqisht-Greek, serbisht-Serbian); maybe it's a loan from Slavic, I'm not sure, but in any case it's not the same as -ishtë/ishta, because, as you can see, it always ends in a vowel (ë or a), and this is not the case with adjectival suffix (-isht); also, the big difference is that placenames ending in -ishtë/ishta are albanized versions of Slavic toponyms and they indicate place or a former place (for example, an old village which is now abandoned - селиште/selishte).
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« Одговор #51 послато: Јул 13, 2018, 03:14:46 поподне »
Hello Nikola,
Thank you, yes I had this impression without knowing for sure.

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« Одговор #52 послато: Јул 13, 2018, 04:43:23 поподне »
Another interesting answer from eupedia forum:

"There is kind of bird galerida called "kukulj" in Serbian dictionary as far I can find and in Russian "hohol" or something,word reffering to the crested feathers on top of its head,your interpretation seem correct.Russian naming of Kossaks because of their shaved head and hair on top "khokhol" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khokhol There is villages in Macedonia named after "kukla" doll,but reffering to stone pillars perhaps,but they are called Kuklitsa not Kukulitsa https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_town_of_Kuklica.Then i looked into Macedonian dictionary "kukul" mean hood or cap,high place or top,braid on hair etc.. http://makedonski.info/search/%D0%BA...D1%83%D0%"

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« Одговор #53 послато: Јул 13, 2018, 04:46:06 поподне »
My answer:
Thank you, Milan.M!
There is this place, called Kouklioi (pronounced almost like kuklji) near my village. They also give the etymology of coccoon of silk worms for it but it does make me think of the ones you mention in Macedonia (Kukla etc.) because the second "ou" is missing and it sounds more like the word koukla.
I also read a similar possible explanation referring to large rocks in the area about yet another village, which is in Zagori (to the north of Ioannina), called Koukouli (singular). I don't quite get the connection of the word to stones or rocks, do you? Anyways interesting that the two cases are again similar in some way.
Also I checked and saw that both villages, Koukoulia and Koukouli, are at 700m. and 1248 m. respectively. Probably both on or around some kind of top or peak. The one called Kouklioi, is at a lower altitude (480 m. if I remember well). Could not verify if this too is at the top of a hill. Could be. However, the explanation given is again the cocoons of silk worms and they mention as proof the existence of many such trees in the village (mouries). Maybe in some cases they refer to tops/peaks, in others to cocoons, and in others to large rocks? I don't really grasp the linguistic/logical link to the large rocks but would like to understand it better.
Also, only the fact that in Macedonian among the various meanings of the word you found "high place or top", is indicative that my hypothesis could be at least for some of the cases, true.
Thank you again!

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« Одговор #54 послато: Јул 15, 2018, 03:40:04 поподне »
 I came across the following today:

https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Cerkovica

The two villages aren't that far away from each other...it makes me think that the name of our village might also be connected to the Bulgarians rather than its Vajunite settlers (as the book I have read mostly suggests)? I don't know...
« Последња измена: Јул 15, 2018, 03:45:42 поподне Alexandra_K »

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« Одговор #55 послато: Јул 15, 2018, 03:44:52 поподне »
Another funny question:

My grandmother used the word "tsagoula" pronounced "ćagula" to refer to "chin/ prominent chin". I can't find any info on the word and its etymology (must be very local). Does anybody have an idea? Thank you!

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« Одговор #56 послато: Јул 15, 2018, 06:59:56 поподне »
Another funny question:

My grandmother used the word "tsagoula" pronounced "ćagula" to refer to "chin/ prominent chin". I can't find any info on the word and its etymology (must be very local). Does anybody have an idea? Thank you!

The only word that sounds similar to me is a localism from Dalmatian dialect, "ćakula", with meaning "smalltalk, chat". I'm not sure can it be connected somehow.
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« Одговор #57 послато: Јул 15, 2018, 07:38:55 поподне »
Thank you, Oljer! Interesting...I don't know if they can be connected but you never know...

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« Одговор #58 послато: Јул 15, 2018, 08:00:40 поподне »
Oljer, I think you must be right about the connection between the two words! I found now that tsagoula/tsagouli is another local version of the word tsaouli used more often in Greek dialects (I only new my grandmother's version). All these words have an Albanian root it seems, and their meaning is lower jaw/chin but also somebody who talks a lot (possibly linked to your word ćakula) or somebody who talks loudly, shouts.
« Последња измена: Јул 15, 2018, 08:02:35 поподне Alexandra_K »

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« Одговор #59 послато: Јул 15, 2018, 08:28:35 поподне »
I am sorry I noticed that I spelled your name wrong twice...it's Ojler! Sorry... :-[ :)

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« Одговор #60 послато: Јул 15, 2018, 10:13:49 поподне »
In another source the origin of the word is mentioned as Turkish and still in another as ancient Greek (siagona--- tsagouni in Northern Greek dialect and probably also other localisms such as tsagoula, tsaouli etc.). The last one does sound probable. Anyways, confusing case :-) Thanks again for your help, Ojler!

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« Одговор #61 послато: Јул 15, 2018, 10:37:31 поподне »
I am sorry I noticed that I spelled your name wrong twice...it's Ojler! Sorry... :-[ :)

No worries  ;) Anyhow, this is not my real name...
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« Одговор #62 послато: Јул 15, 2018, 10:46:05 поподне »
Hey! Ok! :-) Laku noć!

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« Одговор #63 послато: Јул 15, 2018, 11:00:14 поподне »
Hey! Ok! :-) Laku noć!

Καληνύχτα και χαιρετισμούς από τη Χαλκιδική  ;)!
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« Одговор #64 послато: Јул 16, 2018, 12:26:11 пре подне »
Είσαι στην Χαλκιδική; Μιλάς τέλεια Ελληνικά! :-) Να περάσετε όμορφα!!! Χαιρετισμούς από Αλεποχώρι! :-)

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« Одговор #65 послато: Август 10, 2018, 09:05:49 пре подне »
Today I woke up with the inspiration ;-) to look for "Kurent, ime" on Google, since yesterday I learned the word "ime" ;-P
So, below are the results from the Google search. I also the read the English translation by Google so I know more or less what it all means. '
I keep on believing that the direct connection to Slovenia would be a little improbable, as we saw. So, was the male name "Kurent" possibly much more widespread among all/various early Slavs (incl. maybe Sklaveni such as the Vajunites)? I mean, maybe in the Middle Ages it was not yet mostly linked to Slovenia but to other Slavic tribes/cultures of the area as well. Interesting how as a male name it also contains the meaning of "settling down"/ "settling". According to the source I cited earlier, Kurent must have been the name of the Slavic Zupan who had settled in the area. Also, interesting how as a mythological figure Kurent is compared to Dionysus, that's what I had thought from the beginning.

Za druge pomene glej Kurent (razločitev).
Kurent je moško osebno ime

Kurent
Osebno ime

Spol   moški
Wikipedijski članki   Vsi članki, ki se pričnejo z Kurent
Izvor imena   Uredi
Ime Kurent[1] izvira iz imena Pust. Na Slovenskem ima ime Pust še eno ime, in sicer Kúrent na vzhodnem Štajerskem in Notranjskem Korant, V Prekmurju Korent, Koret, v Solkanu na PrimorskemKore, v rodilniku Koreta, na Gorenjskem sveti Korant.

Kurent je danes pojmovan kot dediščina prastarega kulta, podobno kot so imeli stari Grki boga Dioniza. Ker so v davnini praznovali novo leto 1. marca, to je s pričetkom pomladi, Kurent ni bil samo zavetnik neomejenega veselja, ampak tudi znanilec in pobudnik novega življenja, ki ga prinaša pomlad.

Izvor poimenovanja Kurent povezuje jezikoslovecFrance Bezlaj z glagoli ukiriti se »nastaniti, namestiti, ugnezditi se«, s slovenskim in srbohrvaškim ukrcati se in z izgubljenim pomenom glagola kuriti »ustvariti, snovati, graditi«. Slovensko Kurent verjetno izhaja iz deležnika kurent v pomenu »ustvarjajoč«

Pogostost imena   Uredi
Po podatkih SURS-a je bilo na dan 31. decembra2007 v Sloveniji manj kot pet oseb s tem imenom ali pa to ime sploh ni bilo uporabljeno.[2]

Glej tudi   Uredi
seznam osebnih imen na K
Viri   Uredi
^ Keber Janez, Leksikon imen (COBISS)
^ Kurent v Bazi rojstnih imen in priimkov Statističnega urada Republike Slovenije

Kurent (razločitev)

Razločitvena stran Wikimedije
Kurent je lahko:

kurent, pustna maska
Kurent, bajeslovno bitje pri Slovanih
Kurent, osebno ime
Kurent, priimek več ljudi v Sloveniji
Ta razločitvena stran vsebuje seznam člankov, ki bi sicer imeli enako ime.
Če vas je sem pripeljala notranja povezava, jo lahko popravite tako, da bo usmerjena na pomensko ustrezno stran

Do you have any thoughts about it? Thank you

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« Одговор #66 послато: Август 10, 2018, 12:29:40 поподне »
Slovene language is not very intelligible with Serbian, I barely understand the half of this text that you copied.  :) But maybe that's just me.  ;)
Чињеницама против самоувереног незнања.

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« Одговор #67 послато: Август 10, 2018, 12:49:03 поподне »
A, ok! ;-) Sorry! :-)

The translation by google:

Kurent (name)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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For other meanings, see Kurent (discernment) .
Kurent
Personal name

Sex   men
Wikipedia articles   All articles starting with Kurent
Kurent is a man's personal name


Content
1   Name source
2   Frequency of name
3   See also
4   Resources
Source of name
The name Kurent [1] derives from the name Pust . In Slovenia, the name Pust has another name: Kúrent in eastern Styria and Notranjska Korant , in Prekmurje Korent , Koret , in Solkan, in Primorska Kore , in the parent of Koret , in the Gorenjska region Sveti Korant .

Kurent is today regarded as the heritage of an ancient cult, just as the ancient Greek god Dionysus had . Since the New Year was celebrated on the 1st of March , this is the beginning of spring , Kurent was not only a patron of unlimited joy, but also a celebrity and the initiator of a new life brought by spring.

The source of the naming Kurent connects linguist France Bezlaj with verbs to "settle down, settle, nest", embark on the Slovene and Serbo-Croatian ones, and burn the meaning of the verb "to create, to create, to build" with the lost meaning of the verb . Slovenian Kurent probably derived from stakeholder kurent in the sense of "creating"

Frequency of name
According to SORS data , as of December 31, 2007 there were less than five persons in Slovenia with this name, or it was not used at all. [2]

See also
list of personal names in K
Resources
 Keber Janez, Lexicon Names ( COBISS )
 Kurentin the database of births and surnames of theStatistical Office of the Republic of Slovenia
Category :Men's personal names

« Последња измена: Август 10, 2018, 12:51:18 поподне Alexandra_K »

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« Одговор #68 послато: Август 10, 2018, 12:50:32 поподне »
Kurent (distinction)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Kurent can be:

kurent , carnival mask
Kurent , a fabulous creature among the Slavs
Kurent , a personal name
Kurent , the surname of several people in Slovenia
Disconnect icon   This split page contains a list of articles that would otherwise have the same name.
If an internal link has been brought to you, you can correct it by focusing on the relevant site.
Category :Discrepancies

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« Одговор #69 послато: Август 12, 2018, 04:34:41 поподне »
Some other words of Slavic origin from the vocabulary of Epirus :-) (I remember my grandparents using quite a few of them if not all):

(ο)βίρα και βίραγγα=μικρή βαθιά λιμνούλα που σχηματίζεται σε ποτάμι ή ρέμα
γλίνα=λάσπη
γκόλιος=γυμνός
γράβος=είδος βελανιδιάς
γράβαλος/γραβάλι=τσουγκράνα
γρίβας=γκρίζο (άλογο συνήθως)
γρούδα=βώλος/μικρός σε όγκο, μαζεμένος
ζακόνι=συνήθεια
ζαλιάρα (μόνο θηλ.)/ζαλιάρικο=αυτή/αυτό που προκαλει θλίψη και πόνο
ζαντούχα=κουφόβραση/ασφυξία
ζάρκος=γυμνός
ζελενιά=είδος θάμνου
ζιάμπα=μεγάλος σιχαμερός βάτραχος, φρύνος
κασάρι=κλαδευτήρι
κόρα=φλούδα, κρούστα
κόσα=κοτσίδα μαλλιών
κούσιαλο=πολύ γέρος
λ(ε)σιά=πρόχειρη πόρτα σε περίφραξη
μαλέτσκος=άνηβος, μικρός
μαντραβίτσα=μυρμηγκιά
μαρκάλος=η εποχή που ερωτεύονται τα πρόβατα, που μαρκαλιούνται 🙂
ματσί=γατί
μόλτσα=σκώρος
μούργκας=μαύρος
μ(ου)σίτσα=ζωύφιο που τρώει τα σπαρτά
μούτα=σκοτεινά, θολά
μουχρίτσα=ζιζάνιο (φυτό)
μπάστινα=η περιουσία/έκταση αρόσιμων γαιών
μπέλος=άσπρος
μπέμπελη=ιλαρά
μπίμτσα=υπόγειο κελάρι, κρυψώνα
μπιστούρα=σπηλιά
μπούχαβος=κιτρινιάρης, χλωμός, ασθενικός
νταγκλαράς=ψηλός
παγάνα=ενέδρα κυνηγετική
παπάρα=υγρό φαγητό στο οποίο ρίχνουμε ψωμί
πρατσάλος=όταν ερωτεύονται τα γίδια
προβοδώ/ξεπροβοδώ=πανελλήνιο, αλλά όχι από την αρχαία ελληνική
(α)ρέντα=τρεχάλα
ρέντζελο=κουρέλι
ρογκάτσικο=ζώο που δεν πέτυχε καλά ο ευνουχισμός (!)
ρουγκαΐζομαι=ρεύομαι
(παλιο)ρούτι=κουρέλι
σερσένι=είδος μεγάλης σφήκας
σίβος=γκρίζος
σίτα=κόσκινο
σιούλι=το μικρότερο κομμάτι πράγματος, τρίμμα
σκεντάω=ενοχλώ
σκλέντζας=πολύ λεπτός άνθρωπος (αρχικά το ξυλαράκι, το κλαδάκι)
σοκόλι=τσογλάνι, πρόστυχος
στάλος=θέση ανάπαυσης των ζώων (και ρήμα σταλίζω)
στάνη=ποιμνιοστάσιο
στρέκλα=αλογόμυγα
τάτας=πατέρας
τελέσα/-σω=άσεμνη γυναίκα
τορός=ίχνος
τσαντίλα=πλεχτή σακούλα όπου στραγγίζουν το τυρί
τσόπνα=παγίδα για πουλιά
τεντελίνα=είδος αρωματικού φυτού
χλεπούνια=τα σπόρια του αγγουριού (αρχικά όλο το αγγούρι)

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #70 послато: Август 12, 2018, 06:47:42 поподне »
Yes, I've recognized many Slavic words in this list, but there are also many that make no sense to me.  :) They're probably dialectisms. I've even recognized one Eastern Romance (Vlach) loanword, μούργκας, that also has parallels in Albanian.
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« Одговор #71 послато: Август 12, 2018, 09:06:54 поподне »
Thank you, Nikola! :-) My grandmother used μούργκα also as a word which describes the dark sediment in olive oil. Do you know others that use it in this way too?
Laku noć!

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« Одговор #72 послато: Август 12, 2018, 09:17:58 поподне »
Thank you, Nikola! :-) My grandmother used μούργκα also as a word which describes the dark sediment in olive oil. Do you know others that use it in this way too?
Laku noć!

Unfortunately, I don't. I'm not really an expert in olive farming and olive pressing.  :)
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« Одговор #73 послато: Август 12, 2018, 09:54:17 поподне »
Hehe, thank you very much!  ;D

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« Одговор #74 послато: Август 13, 2018, 04:33:47 пре подне »
Kurent is defined in the Croatian Language Portal (HJP) as follows:

1, (mythological) In Slavic mythology, a being whose face looms toward the Moon(?) - orig. u slavenskoj mitologiji biće čije se lice nazire na mjesecu
- if someone has a better translation for "lice nazire na mjesecu", please bring forward. The word mjesec with lowercase m means month, with uppercase m means Moon. It just seems an even odder translation when translated as "whose face looms in the month" Nazirati explained at HJP: http://hjp.znanje.hr/index.php?show=search_by_id&id=eF9lURg%3D&keyword=nazirati

2, (kurent, usually in plural, ethnological) Stylized makeup, for example in sheep's skin (sheepskin?) etc., in Prekmurje and Međimurje

Source: http://hjp.znanje.hr/index.php?show=search_by_id&id=elduWRQ%3D&keyword=Kurent

Prekmurje and Međimurje are regions that border each other on the Mura river, former in northeastern Slovenia and latter in northern Croatia. The population speaks Slovene in the Slovenian territory and Kajkavian in Croatian. Both Slovene and Kajkavian are very similar to each other, Kajkavian being a transitional dialect between Slovene and Croatian.

It seems that Kurent was a figure in old Slavic mythology that has remained in the psyche of the Slovenes and Kajkavian speakers in northern Croatia.

Slovenia has a festival known as Kurentovanje, which is reminiscent of both definitions of Kurent identified above. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurentovanje

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« Одговор #75 послато: Август 13, 2018, 11:15:38 поподне »
Hello Karadag,

Thank you! So you too think that it could have been a figure in old Slavic mythology in general which still survives just in Slovenia and this part of Croatia today. Except for the mythical figure it seems to be also a (nowadays rare) male name, right? Because according to the info I have found, the village Kourenta and the area/group of villages Kourenta were named like this because of the name of the first settler , the Slavic Zupan, named Kurent. So if the mythological figure and the male name Kurent were shared by most Old Slavs and not only by the Slovenes and these Northern Croatians, then this could fit in the above explanation.

By the way at this moment I am in Tsarkovista and I visited the village Kourenta as well a few hours ago ;-) Many greetings from Kurent's ancient home! ;-)
« Последња измена: Август 13, 2018, 11:17:33 поподне Alexandra_K »

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« Одговор #76 послато: Октобар 01, 2018, 10:45:01 поподне »
Today as I was speaking to my Italian husband, I spontaneously uttered one of our dialect's words that of course, poor guy, he didn't understand...:-) The word "zavrakiasmenos" that my grandmother would use for "wrinkled" and metaphorically "underdeveloped (physically)" or "miserable (in appearance and attitude)". I decided to look up its etymology...and there you go, it has a Serbian root ;-) Zabor= wrinkle, crease + Greek ending -aki (diminutive, see "souvlaki" :-P) --> zavraki --> zavrakiasmenos (the one who is wrinkled, shrunk etc.)