Аутор Тема: Could anyone help? :-) Mtdna haplogroup A4a1 from Epirus  (Прочитано 1741 пута)

Ван мреже Alexandra_K

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Could anyone help? :-) Mtdna haplogroup A4a1 from Epirus
« послато: Јул 06, 2018, 10:35:36 пре подне »

Hello again guys,

I am enjoying your hospitality and taking the freedom to pose another question that I am faced with, here:

Namely, my mdtna haplogroup is found to be A4a1, which is pretty rare for Greece and Europe in general, I would say.

I am currently waiting for my results from FTDNA full mitochondrial sequencing. Maybe this will shed some more light to the case.

Just to be more specific, I repeat here that the ancestry I am investigating in this case is my maternal ancestry (from the village Ekklisohori/ previous name Tserkovista of Kourenta, Ioannina, Epirus. The village was a Vajunite settlement, then conquered by Bulgarians and Serbs, finally by Ottomans).

I have posed the question to Eupedia/Anthrogenica where the most complete answer I ever got was the following:


Ebizur said:
05-03-2018 09:42 AM
As far as I know, mtDNA belonging to haplogroup A4a1 has been found in Turkic and Mongolic peoples of central Eurasia, including the Qashqai in Iran. It is derived from A4, so most likely of ultimate origin in northern East Asia or Siberia.

On the Y-DNA side, N1a2b-Y3205/P43 and N1a1a1a1a2-Z1936/CTS1223(xN1a1a1a1a2a1a-CTS10035/Z1935, CTS3372/Z1929, CTS5708/Z1931) have been found among modern Greeks (cf.Hallast et al. 2014, "The Y-Chromosome Tree Bursts into Leaf: 13,000 High-Confidence SNPs Covering the Majority of Known Clades").

As for N1a2b-Y3205/P43, its N1a2b1-P63/B478 subclade has been found mainly in Siberia among Samoyedic peoples, Ugric peoples, Turkic peoples, Evenks, Evens, and Buryats, as well as among Mongols in Mongolia and Chuvashes in eastern Europe. Its N1a2b2a-FGC10847/Y3185 subclade has been found among Belarusians, northern Russians, Finns, Karelians, Vepsas, Komis, Maris, Khants, Chuvashes, Tatars, Bashkirs, Nganasans, and Buryats. Its N1a2b2b-Y23786 subclade has been found among Udmurts, Komis, Khants, Mansis, Tatars, and Eskimo-Aleuts in the extreme northeast of Siberia. Its N1a2b3-B525 subclade has been found in Slovakia, Belarusians, southern Russians, Tatars, Bashkirs, Turks, Arabs, Afghanistan, and Mongols. YFull estimates the TMRCA of all these subclades of N1a2b-P43 to be approximately 4,900 [95% CI 3,900 <-> 5,800] ybp, and it estimates their TMRCA with the mainly East Asian (but also Kazakh, Uzbek, Khakas, etc.) N1a2a-M128 to be approximately 9,000 [95% CI 7,800 <-> 10,200] ybp.

N1a1a1a1a2-Z1936/CTS1223(xN1a1a1a1a2a1a-CTS10035/Z1935, CTS3372/Z1929, CTS5708/Z1931) could belong to any of various subclades found among Tatars, Bashkirs, Ugrians, Kazakhs, Russians, Karelians, and Finns. YFull estimates the TMRCA of all members of N1a1a1a1a2-Z1936/CTS1223 (including all members of the subclade N1a1a1a1a2a1a-Z1929/Z1931/Z1935, who mainly inhabit Fennoscandia) to be approximately 4,500 [95% CI 3,700 <-> 5,300] ybp. Their TMRCA with N1a1a1a1a3-B197 (found mainly in Turko-Mongols and indigenous Siberians) and N1a1a1a1a1-CTS10760 (found mainly in Finns, Karelians, Estonians, Scandinavians, Balts, and Slavs, with a representative of a quite basal branch in the Komi Republic) is estimated to be 4,900 [95% CI 4,200 <-> 5,600] ybp.

I think it remains unclear whether your matrilineal ancestor has come to Greece in the second millennium CE with the Ottoman Turks or in the first millennium CE with some invaders from the steppes like the Huns, Avars, Bulgars, Onogurs, Kutrigurs, or Utigurs.


Others, answered it must be because of the Ottomans, one mentioned the Russians instead.

So my syllogism goes like that:

- It could be from the Ottomans (in Turkey, I think the haplogroup reaches a 2%) who had conquered the area for more than 400 years. My only doubt is that I find it a very rare case for a Turkish lady to marry into a christian orthodox family. Our village has always been Christian (not among muslim villages of Epirus- who were mainly of muslim Arvanites). The opposite (a Romia or other christian lady marrying into a Turkish family would have been more probable, according to my understanding of history. Please tell me if you think that I am wrong in thinking this way. For example maybe you know that a Turkish woman could intermarry with Christians - Greek speaking or not).

- It could be from the Bulgarians who had conquered the area for a considerable period of time and had settled in the broader area in rather big numbers.

- It could be from the first Slavic settlers (Vajunites) if someone would guess that there was some Avar admixture in them. Eg. we often speak about the Avaroslavic invasions in Medieval Greece. Do you know something more about it? Could my guess be right that at least some of the so-called Vajunites could have been indeed Avaro-slavic?

Unfortunately, the oldest ancestor we know from this line is just my maternal great-grandmother so we cannot go much back. Also, to make things worse, there are no archives kept of the births etc. Only one list of births which goes back to 1840 (not much back) but it includes only males...

What are your speculations? Who knows, maybe FTDNA will be able to link me to some relatives with common ancestors. Maybe not... (I have heard that a lot of people do not get any matches even by testing at this level). We will see...

 Thank you

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Одг: Could anyone help? :-) Mtdna haplogroup A4a1 from Epirus
« Одговор #1 послато: Јул 06, 2018, 10:47:25 пре подне »

One last option according to my logic that I forgot to mention:

- It could come from Russia like this lady mentioned. Her comment made me think of the fact that the men of our village were travelling for centuries through the Balkans all the way up to Russia as merchants in caravans. My great-grandfather (father of my mother's father) was one of them too (I mention this as an example of the fact that this tradition had continued until very recently).

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Одг: Could anyone help? :-) Mtdna haplogroup A4a1 from Epirus
« Одговор #2 послато: Јул 06, 2018, 02:27:21 поподне »
I think that the most probable option is this (but that's just my honest opinion):

-It could be from the first Slavic settlers (Vajunites) if someone would guess that there was some Avar admixture in them. Eg. we often speak about the Avaroslavic invasions in Medieval Greece. Do you know something more about it? Could my guess be right that at least some of the so-called Vajunites could have been indeed Avaro-slavic?

Vajunites, like other Slavic tribes that settled in Greece, really could have had some Avar admixture, even as some East Asian mtDNA haplogroup. On the other hand, mtDNA haplogroups are not really that great for tracing your origins, they can only tell you where your maternal ancestors originated in very broad terms (mesolithic hunter-gatherers from Europe, neolithic farmers from Middle East, Indo-Europeans, Siberian peoples, etc.).
Чињеницама против самоувереног незнања.

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Одг: Could anyone help? :-) Mtdna haplogroup A4a1 from Epirus
« Одговор #3 послато: Јул 06, 2018, 03:42:25 поподне »
Thank you! I know in general it is not that helpful (for example my father's mtdna haplogroup is H and it is so common that it cannot easily indicate something significant). But I thought that since mine is rare for the area and for Europe maybe it can lead me to some conclusions about a historical migration to the area. In any case, it did excite my curiosity!

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Одг: Could anyone help? :-) Mtdna haplogroup A4a1 from Epirus
« Одговор #4 послато: Јул 27, 2018, 07:55:52 пре подне »
Hello again,

So my results did come out and I have several matches but to my surprise most of them (on the hvr1, hvr2 and coding regions level) are of Anglo-Saxon or North European origin, 2-3 of Italian origin. On the HVR1 and HVR2 levels I have a match with somebody from the Ukraine (HVR1+2) and someone from Kazakhstan (HVR1). The individuals from the Ukraine and Kazakhstan have not tested any further than the HVR2 and HVR1 level respectively. On just the HVR1 level I also have a match with an individual with an Indian sounding surname (they haven't tested further either).  Do you think that the above info can offer any clues as to the histirical origin of my mtDNA haplogroup?
It seems to me (maybe I am thinking too simplistically though) that since it is a Northeast Asian haplogroup that the individuals from Italy and Northwestern Europe must have been the "next stations" in the spreading of the genetic ancestry since Greece is more to the east. Or at least due to further migrations to the west and/or various quasi simultaneous settlements in different places. I don't know well how to reason about relatedness via mtDNA so maybe I am thinking in the wrong way.
Do you have an idea if the above matches can offer any insight or not? Thank you


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Одг: Could anyone help? :-) Mtdna haplogroup A4a1 from Epirus
« Одговор #5 послато: Јул 27, 2018, 08:12:38 пре подне »
Of course, the large number of Anglo-Saxon etc. matches must be representative of the origin of the people who typically test at FTDNA.

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Одг: Could anyone help? :-) Mtdna haplogroup A4a1 from Epirus
« Одговор #6 послато: Јул 28, 2018, 12:52:38 пре подне »
There's no so many people who are competent to speak about that kind of results here  :)

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Одг: Could anyone help? :-) Mtdna haplogroup A4a1 from Epirus
« Одговор #7 послато: Јул 28, 2018, 08:30:32 пре подне »
Thank you, Kor :-) No problem! Thank you anyways!