Дробњаци - Новљани I1>P109>FGC22045>FGC22061

[CosicZ]

This is what I wrote him in response:

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You have a 6.5 cM segment in common with my father on chr. 13. This may be from the common ancestor with the I-FGC22045 haplogroup or may be from some other more recent common ancestor. The segment is from your paternal side, because my father has no DNA in common with your mother. My father also has 2 segments in common with your paternal cousin, including one that is almost identical as the common segment shared with you. If these shared segments would also be found in the DNA of other men with the I-FGC22061 haplogroup, this will be the proof that they come from the ancestor with the I-FGC22045 haplogroup.

If some or even all members of a particular haplogroup have the same segment of autosomal DNA, is that evidence that that segment came together with the haplogroup?

The story of Jurjević is plausible and should not be dismissed without a proper investigation. It is known that some claim to descend from historical figures without offering any proof for that. Some of them are truthful (sincere), they just relay the stories they have been told by their parents or grandparents. Autosomal DNA testing can establish if these stories are true, half true or false.

[НиколаВук]

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I have posted a two part message that was deleted and I was banned for 7 days. The deleted message had nothing insulting in it and who wants to read it can contact me by e-mail. At the end of the deleted message I said that I will not post again until the test results for Nikola Rašković Drobnjak (NRD) are available. I was determined to do as I said, but then I received some information that may be of interest for those who have the I-FGC22045 haplogroup.
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Поруке су биле увредљиве јер се наставило са клеветањем рада Српског ДНК пројекта и из тог разлога су избрисане. На пример:

"I only suggested that the Serbian DNA Project delays the testing in order not to upset the forum users or the general population interested in the genealogy of Serbian tribes, as the test result will probably not be in accordance with the general belief about the ethnic origin of the medieval Drobnjaks."

Наравно да можеш слободно да пишеш на форуму док год се придржаваш његовог Правилника, што укључује и следећи члан:

Члан 7.

Није дозвољено објављивање нити било каква размена података за које учесник форума зна или претпоставља да су лажни.

[abmunteanu]

CosicZ, the same autosomal segment present in the DNA of multiple men means a common ancestor. If those men have the same or closely related Y haplogroups, it is possible that the segment comes from their common ancestor on the strict Y line. But this may not be the case. Let’s say a man who lived in the Middle Ages had a mutation on the Y chromosome that defined a new haplogroup. His remains were found and tested. Aside of that, it is discovered that some of the contemporary men who have the same haplogroup as him share a 7 cM DNA segment on chr. 11. But this segment is not found in the DNA of the man from the Middle Ages. Is this possible? Of course, the segment can be from another common ancestor, first in line being the wife of the medieval man, then the wife of his son, of his grandson, etc. So, a common DNA segment in men with the same haplogroup does not mean that it was from the beginning transmitted strictly on the paternal line, like the Y chromosome. However, this segment being transmitted for so many generations means that from some time it was transmitted strictly on the paternal line, like the Y chromosome.

At this time we have three branches of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup:
1) Drobnjak branch
2) Chumak branch
3) Albanian branch

If the same DNA autosomal segment is found in men from all these three branches, that means the segment belonged to the common Y ancestor (or his wife, etc.). Now, if the same segment is also found in autosomal matches from Scandinavia, then the segment probably belonged to the common Scandinavian ancestor.

When I spoke to Siryi, I should have said that a common segment with my father could possibly come from a common ancestor on the Y line, before the Drobnjak and Chumak lines have split.

[abmunteanu]

NikolaVuk [НиколаВук], I don’t want to discuss on this thread about my ban, it would derail the conversation. As I said, I don’t care if I am banned forever from this forum, let alone for 7 days. Do you want to know how many forum users wanted to see my deleted message? Zero, nobody has contacted me by e-mail. The Serbs who have the I-FGC22061 haplogroup or those interested in its origin are either satisfied with Poreklo’s handling of the NRD situation, or they don’t care and don’t want any updates. I can assure you that I myself will not ask for any updates on the matter from now on. But Poreklo’s statute says that the members (like CosicZ, Drvošeca, Aca, Željko) have the right to be informed. I've read the statute and there it says on Article 8 {automatic translation} : “A regular [or associate or honorary] member has the right to be timely and fully informed about the work and activities of the Society.”

[CosicZ]

CosicZ, the same autosomal segment present in the DNA of multiple men means a common ancestor. If those men have the same or closely related Y haplogroups, it is possible that the segment comes from their common ancestor on the strict Y line. But this may not be the case. Let’s say a man who lived in the Middle Ages had a mutation on the Y chromosome that defined a new haplogroup. His remains were found and tested. Aside of that, it is discovered that some of the contemporary men who have the same haplogroup as him share a 7 cM DNA segment on chr. 11. But this segment is not found in the DNA of the man from the Middle Ages. Is this possible? Of course, the segment can be from another common ancestor, first in line being the wife of the medieval man, then the wife of his son, of his grandson, etc. So, a common DNA segment in men with the same haplogroup does not mean that it was from the beginning transmitted strictly on the paternal line, like the Y chromosome. However, this segment being transmitted for so many generations means that from some time it was transmitted strictly on the paternal line, like the Y chromosome.

At this time we have three branches of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup:
1) Drobnjak branch
2) Chumak branch
3) Albanian branch

If the same DNA autosomal segment is found in men from all these three branches, that means the segment belonged to the common Y ancestor (or his wife, etc.). Now, if the same segment is also found in autosomal matches from Scandinavia, then the segment probably belonged to the common Scandinavian ancestor.

When I spoke to Siryi, I should have said that a common segment with my father could possibly come from a common ancestor on the Y line, before the Drobnjak and Chumak lines have split.

About Jurjević, his father being from Zadar, he could be autosomally related to the Venetian Giorgi/Zorzi family, but that doesn’t mean he has the same haplogroup as the Zorzi family. A few of the presumed Zorzi autosomal matches of Jurjević should be tested to see what is the haplogroup of the Zorzi family. It is also very probable that not all people named Zorzi from the Adriatic coast were related to the Venetian Zorzi family. The historian Konstantin Jireček said that the Zorzi could have originated in Kotor (Montenegro), the town being named Cattaro in Italian.

The closest common ancestor along the paternal line of your father and Siryi lived about 1000 years ago according to https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-FGC22052/ . If we count three generations per century, that is 30 generations. Each person has one father and one mother, two grandfathers and two grandmothers ... and 1073741824 ancestors 30 generations back. That number is greater not only than the population of Europe at that time, but also today. And if we count four generations per century, that's 1099511627776 ancestors 40 generations back. And only one of those 1073741824 ancestors is a direct paternal ancestor - the line through which the Y chromosome and its haplogroups are transmitted. But segments of autosomal genetics can come from any of those 1073741824 ancestors.

What is the probability that the autosomal segment that both Siryi and your father have came from their closest common ancestor along the paternal lines and was passed along those lines to them, thus the same route as the Y chromosome? The probability that that segment came to your father through a direct paternal line, and not along one of the 1073741823 other lines 30 generations back, is 1/1073741824. It is equally likely that that segment came to Siryi through a direct paternal line rather than an alternate route. And the product of those two probabilities is 1/1152921504606846976. I think this shows that the shared segments are from more recent ancestors and probably did not come through direct paternal lines. And let's not even talk about Scandinavia.

[abmunteanu]

CosicZ, if you are speaking about an autosomal DNA segment found in only two persons, the probability of it being from a very distant common ancestor is indeed very low.

But this is not what I said. I said that if a common autosomal segment is found in multiple people from all the three branches of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup, then the segment could be from the common Y-DNA Balkan ancestor. And if the same segment is found in autosomal matches from Scandinavia, the segment could actually be from the common Scandinavian ancestor.

That's why the autosomal testing of NRD is very important. His DNA could be compared with the DNA of medieval people originary from the Balkans or Scandinavia (Vikings, Normans, Varangians) and with the DNA of contemporary people from Scandinavia. The common segments could then be searched in the DNA of contemporary men with the I-FGC22045 haplogroup. We can find if in their DNA there are segments that were inherited from people who lived 1000 years ago in the Balkans or Scandinavia.

[Драган Обреновић]

Abmunteanu,

Advising someone to order autosomal test of a modern individual to decipher common ancestry dating back 1000 years ago is simply a misguided advice (I would not use stronger words). These tests are "short-range artillery", designed to find relatives within the last 5 (ultimately 6) generations. If you don't believe CosicZ who gave you a very good illustration of what are you trying to achieve with an autosomal test, please read this:

https://help.familytreedna.com/hc/en-us/articles/4411203169679-Our-Autosomal-DNA-Test-Family-Finder-#family-finder-matches-0-3

One more thing... People on this forum are well acquainted with genetic genealogy, and capable of critical thinking and forming opinions out of new information and results as they emerge. You don't need to provide your own "curated guides" for new results and brain-dump every new hypothesis that you constructed out of a that results, in a series of 2-3 connected sheets of text.

Believe me, every person who hit the "stone wall" in researching distant ancestry may construct dozens of perfectly plausible similar theories about old ancestry.

Did you consider creating a personal blog (it's very easy and cheap to do so) about origins of haplogroup I1-FGC22045 where you can publish your hypotheses? Occasionally you can post a link here that when you published a new article/hypothesis on your research blog, and post directly when you believe that you have something truly tangible to announce?

[Željko]

Зна ли се ко је YF122014 који је остао на FGC22061* нивоу?

Иначе, нисам видео да је неко питао - како стоје ствари са пројектом профилизације Дробњака, тј да ли су послати узорци у мају као што је било предвиђено? Ако Данте буде радио истим темпом, претпостављам да би ти резултати требало да стигну крајем године.

Ја сам тек у скорије вријеме схватио да постоји тај пројекат. Мислим да није раније подјељено на овој теми..


Projekat profilizacije genetičkog roda Drobnjaka-Novljana (I1-FGC22045>FGC22061)
https://www.poreklo.rs/projekti/projekat-geneticke-profilizacije-roda-drobnjaka-novljana-i1p109fgc22045fgc22061/

[Драгутин]

Ja sam upravo uplatio cenu jednog testa, a voljan sam da finansiram isti za sebe, te obezbedim i finansiram za bar jos dva bratstva. Ostavio sam i kontakt podatke pa molim da mi se neko javi tim povodom

[Amicus]

Ја сам тек у скорије вријеме схватио да постоји тај пројекат. Мислим да није раније подјељено на овој теми..

Projekat profilizacije genetičkog roda Drobnjaka-Novljana (I1-FGC22045>FGC22061)
https://www.poreklo.rs/projekti/projekat-geneticke-profilizacije-roda-drobnjaka-novljana-i1p109fgc22045fgc22061/

Пројекат је покренут још крајем марта, али није се радило на широј популаризацији, јер је у међувремену DanteLabs почео да касни са испоруком резултата.

Ипак, у међувремену је дониран један тест, из кога је по жељи донатора тестиран:

- Томић, Никољдан, Придворица, Горња Буковица, Шавник

Осим њега, самостално су се у пројекат укључили још:

- Брашанац, Никољдан, Доње Бабине, Пријепоље
- Брашњовић, Никољдан, Звијезд, Пријепоље

Који су сами финансирали своје тестирање.

Ja sam upravo uplatio cenu jednog testa, a voljan sam da finansiram isti za sebe, te obezbedim i finansiram za bar jos dva bratstva. Ostavio sam i kontakt podatke pa molim da mi se neko javi tim povodom

Хвала, Драгутине. То значајна подршка пројекту. Јавићу вам се на мејл.

Иначе, последње у вези с овим пројектом што је рађено био је покушај да се ступи у контакт са двојицом тестираних који су пореклом из Македоније, али нажалост ниједан се није одазвао позиву за учешће у пројекту, иако су средства за њихово тестирање била обезбеђена.

[abmunteanu]

###
Dragan Obrenović [Драган Обреновић], I get the message. You and other members from the Poreklo society think that my opinions and advices are useless, so you are suggesting to me not to post them on this forum. As I said, I had decided two weeks ago not to post for a long period of time, but posted again due to some unexpected happenings that concerned this thread. It is true, I can create a blog or post on another genealogy forum. This is my last message here.
###

Now let’s speak about the Bona family. The Bona family was in fact named Bunić and was also from Dubrovnik. First of all, the name ressembles the name of the Bunjevci, a name which also has the root “Buni”. It must be noted that in the Vlach language and in Rumanian the word "bun” (pl. “buni“) means “good”. And it must be noted that the name Dobroneagu [Dobro + Neagu] is a Slavo-Vlach/Rumanian name which means “Neagu the Good” [“Neagu cel Bun” in Vlach/Rumanian]. Maybe these are coincidences, maybe not.

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The House of Bona, or Bunić, is a noble family long established in the city of Dubrovnik.

The origins of the family remain largely unclear, but according to the two oldest traditions, it originated from Kotor in Venetian Albania, or else from the town of Vieste in Apulia [Italy] and Leck. The Almanach de Gotha enumerates it among the eleven oldest native families of the Republic of Ragusa, and members of the family were still living in the city in the 19th century.

The main branch of the family is still in existence, with its principal residence in the United States, but also a secondary residence and several businesses in Dubrovnik.

Notable members
Jan (Giovanni) Junta Bona (15th century), merchant from Venice, owner of Krakow saltworks and several villages in Małopolska.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bona_family

{automatic translation}
The Bunići are the oldest noble family in Dubrovnik; they are mentioned in 1023 in the donation document, which was issued by the Republic [of Ragusa] to the Benedictines, when it donated the island of Lokrum [opposite to Dubrovnik]. [...] Where the family came to Dubrovnik a thousand years ago has not been fully clarified to this day. Some scholars think that the family came from central Germany via Italy, and others, like Sergio Bertelli [...] think that they are "Bona originali di Puglia" (the Bunici come from Puglia).
[...]
According to the third version, this nobility is of Frankish origin, mentioned in Dubrovnik already in the 9th century. The Bunići were officially called Bona, Boni and Bonam, after the native Bunić, and some Boni were called Vučićević and Babulinović. Some other scholars connect this family from Dubrovnik with the Bona family from Kotor and claim that they come from the Bisti family from the 13th century, and that they got their family name from Bona, the wife of Sergius de Bisti.

https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buni%C4%87_(plemstvo)
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The origin of the Bona/Bunić family is not clear. There are multiple versions of its origins. One of them speaks about an origin from the town of Leck, in nothern Germany, close to the border with Denmark. Other says that the origin was in central Germany. Another speaks about a Frankish [Germanic] origin. This could explain the I1 haplogroup. And finally, one says about the name Bisti being the true name of the family. A similar sounding name, Basta, is mentioned in the census documents from Lika presented in the book written by Marko Šarić.

But there is another very interesting information about the Bona family. One of its members from the 15th century, Jan (Giovanni) Bona, was a <<merchant from Venice, owner of Krakow saltworks and several villages in Małopolska.>> We again have the connection with the salt. Kraków is today in Poland, but in the past it was situated in Galicia, a region that was very rich in salt, which was probably processed in the saltworks (salt factories) of Kraków. I told in a previous message about the fact that in my opinion the I-FGC22045 paternal ancestor of Siryi, named Chumak [literally “salt trader”], was from Galicia, based on some autosomal matches that he has in common with me. Now we know that a male member of the Bona family has lived in Krakow, Galicia, and was the owner of a salt factory. Is he the ancestor of Siryi? We don’t know at this time, but Siryi could check if he or his paternal cousin have autosomal matches with the surnames Bona, Boni, Bunic.

[abmunteanu]

In my opinion, the I-FGC22045 haplogroup was linked in the past with the salt production and trade, and this could explain its spread.

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High-quality rock salt was cut in medieval Transylvania, Maramureş and southern Poland (Wieliczka). Tuzla in Bosnia and Herzegovina was named in Hungarian Só (salt) from the twelfth century on and later "place of salt" by Turks.

During the late Roman Empire and throughout the Middle Ages salt was a precious commodity carried along the salt roads into the heartland of the Germanic tribes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_salt
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What’s more, Venice, linked to the Giorgi/Zorzi and Bona families, was a very important center in the production and trade of salt.

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The Republic of Venice was active in the production and trading of salt, salted products, and other products along trade routes established by the salt trade. Venice produced its own salt at Chioggia by the seventh century for trade, but eventually moved on to buying and establishing salt production throughout the Eastern Mediterranean.[...] Venetian exporters were obligated to import salt into Venice, for which they were paid a subsidy - the ordo salis. The Venetian state then resold the salt at a profit - a form of Salt tax - to markets throughout Italy, Dalmatia, Slovenia, and the Stato da mar [overseas Venetian possessions from around 1000 to 1797, including parts of what are now Istria, Dalmatia, Montenegro, Albania, Greece]. Venice had a salt monopoly for many of these markets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_Venice#Salt_trade
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stato_da_M%C3%A0r

Salt was one of the major goods used for bartering, a sort of currency used by the lagoon people to buy wheat and other products from the mainland and therefore was the beginning of Venice’s future commercial success. The city of Venice (Civitas Rivoalti) gradually expanded from the original nucleus to the surrounding area, by reclaiming the land and building on the what were originally mill ponds and salt-works. In 1200, the lagoon looked quite different to what we see today: there were large salt-works in the areas of Cannaregio (Luprio) and Dorsoduro, where the imposing Salt Warehouses (Magazzini del Sale) would be built some two centuries later. [...] During the Middle Ages, salt became the best way to increase the lagoon’s wealth and status. This was a hard task, mostly carried out by the Benedictine monasteries scattered around the lagoon area.

https://www.venicethefuture.com/schede/uk/174-aliusid=174.htm
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We can see from the quote posted above that the salt trade in Venice was carried out by the Benedictine monasteries. In a previous quote it was said that the Bunić family appears the first time in documents when the island of Lokrum was given to the Benedictine order in 1023. That means the Bunić family was living on the island. There is an interesting connection between Lokrum and Normandy, according to a legend.

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{automatic translation}
It is said that in 1192 the English king Richard I the Lionheart landed on Lokrum, caught by a storm on his way back from the Third Crusade. As a sign of gratitude, he donated a large amount of money for the construction of a church at the place of salvation in Lokrum. Tradition says that the people of Dubrovnik convinced Richard to donate the money to the [Dubrovnik] cathedral because from the top of the cathedral you can see the place where he reached land.

https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lokrum

Richard I (8 September 1157 – 6 April 1199) was King of England from 1189 until his death in 1199. He also ruled as Duke of Normandy, Aquitaine and Gascony; Lord of Cyprus; Count of Poitiers, Anjou, Maine, and Nantes; and was overlord of Brittany at various times during the same period.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_I_of_England
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Richard the Lionheart being Duke of Normandy, he surely had Normans on his ship. One of this Normans could be the ancestor of the Bunić family.

[Željko]

Пројекат је покренут још крајем марта, али није се радило на широј популаризацији, јер је у међувремену DanteLabs почео да касни са испоруком резултата.

У сваком случају, свака част на иницијативи! Мислим да ћемо ја и други ентузијасти моћи да се придружимо свojeвремено, или у каснијој фази кад ствари буду кренуле напријед. Ако се има, ако се може, или ако је интересантно у датом тренутку.

Обавештавајте помало с времена на вријеме шта се дешава. Можда се нађе неко што прати ову тему да уплати донацију, прискочи ако узфали за неко тестирање, или да помогне ако треба да се контактира неко итд. Штета што се Македонци не јавише, појавит ће се ваљда други једнога дана...
Амикусе, можете ми се јавити на мејл у вези са овим пројектом.

[RajkoK]

(порука 1 од 2)

Поштовани,

Поздрављајући и подржавајући акцију „Пројекат профилизације генетичког рода Дробњака-Новљана (I1-FGC22045>FGC22061)“ нудимо два бесплатна FTDNA Y-DNA 37 теста (редовна цијена једног пакета је 119$), са могућношћу будуће надоградње на дубински тест са већим  бројем маркера (111 или 700) уз евентуално пребацивање резултата на YFULL.

Тражимо два кандидата за тестирање поријеклом из Пошћења, слава Савиндан, од племена Дробњака, братства Косовчића, групе Омакаловића, и рода Абазовића (I1-FGC22045>FGC22061>FT36856). Заинтересовани кандидати не морају нужно да и данас живе у Пошћењу, али треба да су јасне спознаје поријекла из тог мјеста и од тог рода и славе, пожељно да знају име барем до прађеда, а још боље чукунђеда. Уколико вас је више од истог презимена, најбоље је да тестирамо најстаријег живог мушког члана породице. Главни циљ нам је да потврдимо (и наставимо да надограђујемо) постојећи родослов и наше заједничко потомство од војводе Павла, по директној мушкој линији. А. Лубурић је навео имена петорице Павловљевих синова, а потом и прецизно наводи прва знана презимена која настају од његових потомака уз, наравно, одувијек присутну главну линију презимена Абазовића. Ми већ пуне двије деценије радимо на употпуњавању овог родослова, идентификујући још многа новонастала презимена овог рода нарочито током XVIII и XIX вијека, широм српских земаља, а посебно са Гласинца, Вранеша као и Крајине. 

Војвода Павле Драгићевић (Абазовић) је јуначки погинуо 1645. током Кандијског рата на Смријечну у Пиви са још, по предању, 300 ратника из Дробњака и Пиве. Сахрањен је код цркве у Пошћењу, и остао је упамћен као изузетно храбар, лијеп и писмен човјек, чак је имао и сопствени печат, а помогао је и осликавање припрате Манастира Пива у периоду 1625-1626 финансирајући рад најзнаменитијег зографа XVII вијека Јована који је осликавао и друге српске манастире попут Хиландара и Мораче. Вриједно је поменути да је на источном зиду припрате Манастира Пива, насликан Свети Сава Српски са одложеним владарским знацима пред Богородицом, управо рад зографа Јована потпомогнут од војводе Павла. Изворна слава свих Косовчића је Савиндан, а постоји неколико индиција које указују да Косовчићи узимају Савиндан за заједничку братственичку славу чак од средине XV вијека, односно након што Стефан Вукчић Косача постаје Херцег од Светог Саве у манастиру Милешева 1448-1449. Имамо традиционално блиске односе браства Косовчића са српском средњовјековном хумском племићком породицом Косача. Чини се да не би Косаче могле тако олако и брзо, у свега двије-три генерације, да овладају огромном територијом да им Дробњаци предвођени Косовчићима нису у томе свесрдно помагали, као моћни и вјерни савезници. Косаче су биле одане Котроманићима и Немањићима, а Дробњаци Косачама.

Натпис на гробном стећку војводе Павла су тумачила два наша врхунска стручњака, Ш. Бешлагић и Г. Комар, од којих је Комар дошао до несумњиво прецизнијег тумачења, јер смо тако сазнали и за име од оца војводе Павла, што је касније потврђено и на другом запису. За све ово што је овдје наведено је било сачувано не само у предањима из Дробњака, која су се много пута до сада показала задивљујуће поузданим у својој суштини, него и у историјским изворима првог реда попут факсимила оригиналних писама које чува которски архив, надгробних епитафа и ктиторских записа из манастира Пива. И. Томић је још 1891. уочио да старци из Дробњака „предање држе као аманет“ и да такви докази „могу бити истинитији него ли акти кога прашњавог архива“.

Војвода Павле је био савременик и близак рођак, врло могуће и стриц, од још једног знаменитог припадника овог рода - Владике Дионисија. Имали смо приступ оригиналном писму млетачког провидура (Girolamo Corner, број 55, fol. 538, Сплит, датум 5.1.1689) из Архива у Задру, до којег смо недавно дошли и превели га. Поред овог, и постојећа стручна литература и радови несумњиво потврђују да је Владика Дионисије био Епископ Зворника (Ф. Онганиа, Б. Храбак, Г. Комар, Р. Старовић), тако да смо покренули иницијативу при Архиву Епархије зворничко-тузланске, са којом је упознат и Епископ зворничко-тузлански господин Фотије, да се блаженопочивши Владика Дионисије призна и уврсти на званични списак свих знаних архијереја те епархије, и то као „Митрополит Зворнички и Дробњачки Дионисије“, за период 1688-1689.

Свим овим родовима, војвода Павле (у. 1645) је пра-прађед, а владика Дионисије (у. 1689) је прастриц. Обојица, Војвода Павле и Владика Дионисије су несумњиво били истинске вође „Хришћана из Дробњака и Херцеговине“ (како пише провидур у извјештају свом сенату) у борби српског народа за ослобођење од турске окупације у доба прво Кандијског, а потом и Морејског рата. Наша историографија их је неправедно, и готово у потпуности запоставила, а наша света дужност, не само као њихових потомака, него и као изданака српског рода, је да пробамо ту неправду барем дјелимично исправити.

[RajkoK]

(порука 2 од 2)

Жеља нам је да током прве половине септембра 2023. овако организујемо тестирање:

Први кит да користимо за тестирање потомка од Павловог сина Војина, дакле или за Башовића (Савиндан) или за Војиновоћа (Савиндан, Пошћење) или за Радуловића (Савиндан).

Други кит да користимо за тестирање потомка једног од четири преостала Павлова сина, дакле или за Алексића (Савиндан, Пошћење) или за Головића (Савиндан, Пошћење) или за Дуковића (Савиндан) или за Ковијанића (Савиндан) или за Пушељу (Савиндан) или за Сандића (Савиндан) или за Симуновића (Савиндан).

Тестирање (односно узимање бриса са унутрашње стране образа) је потпуно безболно. Уколико нађемо кандидата који испуњава ове критеријуме, тестирање би се обавило у првој половини септембра (нпр. у Пошћењу или Београду или на мјесту гдје се можемо лично наћи по договору), и одмах би се препорученом поштом слало за лабораторију у Хјустон. Највећи дио трошкова је покривен од господина Рајка Коњокрада, родом из Рогатице, а потомка од овог знаменитог рода. Молим вас да ме контактирате на [email protected]  за све додатне информације, питања и договоре у вези овог „подпројекта“.

[Batara1]

Колико сам ја схватио, и старинци у Дробњацима имају И-1 хаплогрупи, као и Новљани.

[Batara1]

Колико сам ја схватио, и старинци у Дробњацима имају И-1 хаплогрупи, као и Новљани.

Не, нису. Погријешио сам.
Видио сам да су Јакшићи (са Даниловићима, Дурковићима, Јауковићима и Шаулићима) огранак Мандића и притом И-1а хаплогрупа. Међутим, Мандићи спадају у Старинце, не у Новљане.

[Batara1]

Да ли неко зна шта више о овоме? На регистру презимена у Цг, уписани су као сродници Јауковића, а огранак Мандића, од Новљана. Међутим, Мандићи из Дробњака су по литератури од Старинаца, а Јакшића нема у предању о 6 синова кнеза Дракула Мандића.

[сɣнце]

The Abaza family from Moldavia has no male descendants from the end of the 19th century. But the Abaza family from Russia exists to this day. So I searched their name, Абаза, and found the Wikipedia article in Russian.

In the article it is said that Abaza Mehmed Pasha (1576-1634) was born in Budapest, in a princely family from Bessarabia. I will add that Bessarabia was the name of a region that was incorporated in 1812 into the Russian Empire, a territory that is roughly the territory of today’s Republic of Moldova. But at the time of Abaza Mehmed Pasha, that territory was part of the medieval state of Moldavia, a vassal state of the Ottoman Empire. Budapest also was in the Ottoman Empire at that time. As a child, Abaza moved to Istanbul with his parents, thanks to the support of the Sultan’s concubine Halime, who was of Abkhazian origin. As an adult he became an official of the Ottoman empire with various assignments. In 1628-1631 he was the governor of Bosnia. In 1634 Abaza Mehmed Pasha appointed Vasile Lupu (real name Lupu Coci) as the ruler of Moldavia.

In 1633, in Iași (Moldavia), Abaza Mehmed Pasha married his second wife, Ekaterina, the daughter of the Polish military commander Stanisław Koniecpolski, who according his own Wikipedia article had most of his possessions in Ukraine and <<became Ukraine's unofficial ruler; some foreigners referred to him as "viceroy of Ukraine">>.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanis%C5%82aw_Koniecpolski

The son of Abaza Mehmed Pasha with his Polish wife was Andrii Abazyn, a Ukrainian Cossack colonel, who fought alongside the Poles against the Turks and Tatars and then against the Poles and was executed by the latter. I have no idea why in the English article it is said that his allegiance was “Valahia”, which was the name given by the foreigners to medieval Rumania (which did not include Moldavia at that time). Maybe because his wife was of Moldavian origin, as judging by her name (Safta Dociul). He had 4 children, 3 boys and a girl who were raised in Moldavia. One of the boys, Ilya Abaza [Ilie Abaza in Rumanian], a Moldavian boyar, is the ancestor of the Russian branch of the Abaza family, having emigrated in Russia in 1711.

The Russian family Abaza got in touch with me and informed me that two tests on FTDNA for two direct male descendants of Abaza-pasha have  been orderd and that the results will be done in couple of months. Bear in mind that the lineage descending from Abaza-pasha´s doughter also bear the name Abaza although they are sons of Vasile Lupu, which Y-chromosome they inherited. Coci descend from Albania and a.f.a.i. they bear the haplogroup R-L1029, the Dibra cluster, according to tested males from Albania with the surename Coci. The reason why they contacted me is that Abaza is also a surename that occures in my genetic clan i-A1328. The members of Russian noble family Abaza believe that Abaza-pasha was of Abhazian origin but I doubt that. The results will bring some light into the origin of Abaza-pasha.

[Ивица Јовановић]

Појавио се нови, мислим да је у грани са Мунтеануом. id:YF124029. Ето мало среће и за њега