Дробњаци - Новљани I1>P109>FGC22045>FGC22061

[Drvoseča]

Видим да ми је Yfull додао један SNP на нивоу FGC22061* - BY233491 • TY3093 (има само једну звездицу). Aко добро видим, делим га тренутно са подгранама FGC22054 и FT408946, као и са Живковићем из Ибарског Колашина. Да ли неко може да појасни - постоји ли могућност да се формира нова подграна, или је нешто друго ту у питању?

[abmunteanu]

This is a three part message.

I was contacted by the Albanian admin from the Albanian Rrenjet DNA Project who told me this:
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“He [the tested Albanian from Kurbin] is FGC22045(+) and FGC22057(-). So this means, in addition to the result from Pogradec who is on YFull, there are at least one lineage in Mat and one in Kurbin (2 results there) who are also negative for FGC22057."
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According to YFull, the SNP FGC22057 is one of the SNPs that define the I-FGC22061 haplogroup. The test was for FGC22057 because YSEQ does not test for the SNP FGC22061.

Previously I made a donation to the Albanian Gjenetika DNA group to have one of the I-FGC22045 Albanians from Kičevo tested for FGC22052, the SNP that defines the haplogroup of O. Siryi. He was negative for this SNP. As an aside, about Siryi. I wrote him a year ago and he told me that his mother was DNA tested. Since he was also tested at FTDNA (he has the Family Finder tag), I explained to him that he could see which of his autosomal matches are from his paternal side by using the "Not in common with" feature when selecting his mother from the matches list. He told me that on Ancestry and MyHeritage he has less than 1% Balkan DNA, but he has 30% Baltic DNA, the rest being probably East-European (Slavic) DNA. Unfortunately he didn’t answer to my last message. He is present on GEDmatch, but I don’t know his kit number. He appears as distantly related to the I-FGC22061 branch, the closest Big Y match being M. Grbović with 12 STR differences and the farthest being A. Jaksić and M. Božić with 18 STR differences. For comparison, my father's closest Big Y match is M. Grbović with 3 STR differences and the farthest are V. Erović with 12 differences and N. Coradello with 14 differences. So, if my father’s ancestor has left the southern Balkans 300 years ago, it seems that Siryi's ancestor has left the Balkans earlier, maybe 500 years ago.

Now back to the subject. My conclusion was the following:
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Maybe this is a proof that the 3 branches of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup (FGC22061, FGC22052 and the Albanian branch) are not derived from the same medieval Germanic ancestor, if we consider that these branches have arrived in the Balkans in medieval times and not before (for example with the Goths). My new hypothesis about these branches is based on the mass migration of the Saxons to Transylvania, which began around 1150 (my father’s paternal ancestor was from Făgăraș, Transylvania, a region with a sizeable Saxon population until the end of the 20th century). It is very probable that this mass migration contained a lot of men who were related more or less closely, because they lived in nearby villages or towns in their place of origin. So, not only were brothers or 1st cousins part of the migration, but also more distant cousins and of course men who were distantly related on the Y chromosome, who had a common Y ancestor who lived centuries in the past. Some of these Saxons were miners and they went to work in the Transylvanian mines, which were opened and managed by their Saxon compatriots. From Transylvania some went to work in the Serbian mines (including the ones in today’s northern Montenegro, like Pljevlje and Brskovo), which were also managed by Saxons. This is well documented. I don’t know if Saxons were present in medieval Albania, but they were present in Kosovo, where they worked in the mines of Trepça, Novo Brdo/Artana, Janjevë. It is possible that 3 Saxon miners with related (but not identical) I-FGC22045 haplogroups are the ancestors of the 3 branches that we see today.
=====

To which the Rrenjet admin replied:
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I do not think this lineage [I-FGC22045] has anything to do with the Saxons. I believe it was spread by Goths or one of the other Germanic tribes that migrated around that time, then they settled in the Balkans and merged with the proto-Albanian and proto-Vlach population. Your ancestor probably comes from the proto-Vlach ones, most likely around Kosovo or SE Serbia. Even the Swedish sample above matches this scenario. And from ~800 CE there is no German connection found.
---------

He’s an admin of a DNA project, so his opinion must be taken into account.

[abmunteanu]

Of course, the Gothic/Gepidic theory about the origin of I-FGC22045 is not new. It was first mentioned by Bane on page 8 of this thread.

1) An argument in favor of this theory is the fact that, as I said above, the Goth/Gepid migration included very probably men that were related more or less closely on the Y chromosome, so they had identical or closely related haplogroups. This could explain the 3 branches of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup.

2) Another argument is the fact that the Goths were present at different times in medieval Wallachia (Buzău county) and on the Adriatic coast. There was a war between the Goths and the Byzantines in 535-540.

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The Gothic War between the Eastern Roman Empire during the reign of Emperor Justinian I and the Ostrogothic Kingdom of Italy took place from 535 to 554 in the Italian Peninsula, Dalmatia, Sardinia, Sicily and Corsica.
[...]
First Byzantine campaign, 535–540
Conquest of Sicily and Dalmatia

In March 536 Mundus overran Dalmatia and captured its capital, Salona [today’s Solin, next to Split, Croatia], but a large Gothic army arrived and Mundus' son Mauricius died in a skirmish. Mundus inflicted a heavy defeat on the Goths but was himself mortally wounded in the pursuit. The Roman army withdrew and, except for Salona, Dalmatia was abandoned to the Goths.[...] Justinian sent a new magister militum per Illyricum, Constantinianus, to recover Dalmatia and ordered Belisarius to cross into Italy. Constantinianus accomplished his task speedily. The Gothic general, Gripas, abandoned Salona, which he had only recently occupied, because of the ruined state of its fortifications and the pro-Roman stance of its citizens, withdrawing to the north. Constantinianus occupied the city and rebuilt the walls. Seven days later the Gothic army departed for Italy and by late June the whole of Dalmatia was in Roman hands.

During 550–51, the Byzantines assembled a large expeditionary force of 20,000 or 25,000 men at Salona on the Adriatic, including regular Byzantine units and a large contingent of foreign allies, notably Lombards, Heruls and Bulgars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_War_(535%E2%80%93554)
=====

There was also a Gothic theory about the ethnogenesis of the Croats, today largely abandoned by lack of evidence, although of course some Goths who settled on the Adriatic coast very probably have participated in the formation of the Croatian people. However, the majority of the Goths left the area after their defeat by the Byzantines.

======
The Gothic theory, which dates back to the late 12th and 13th century work by Priest of Duklja and Thomas the Archdeacon, without excluding that some Gothic segments could survive the collapse of Gothic Kingdom [Ostrogothic Kingdom 493-553] and were included in Croatian ethnogenesis, is based on almost none concrete evidence to identify Croats with the Goths.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_hypotheses_of_the_Croats#Gothic_theory
======

[abmunteanu]

3) The Herul hypothesis
It is interesting that in the Gothic-Byzantine war have also participated large contingents of other Germanic tribes, Lombards and Heruls (Heruli), who were fighting for the Byzantines. The Heruls/Heruli are a very interesting tribe for the I-FGC22045 haplogroup, being presumed of Scandinavian origin and some of them lived in the Balkans near today’s Belgrade, where they were assimilated by the local Romanized population, later becoming Vlachs. Other apparently went westward, alongside the Lombards.

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The origins of the Heruli are traditionally sought in north-central Europe, possibly Scandinavia.

In his 6th century work Getica, the historian Jordanes, based in Constantinople, wrote that the Heruli had been driven out of their homeland in Scandinavia by the Danes. This has been read as implying Heruli origins in the Danish isles or southernmost Sweden. The reliability and correct interpretation of this passage in the Getica is, however, disputed. On the other hand, his contemporary Procopius recounted a migration of a sixth-century group of Heruli noblemen to Thule (which for him, but not Jordanes, was the same as Scandinavia), from their "homeland" on the Middle Danube.

What happened to the main part of the Danubian Heruli has been difficult to reconstruct from Procopius, but according to Steinacher they first moved downstream on the Danube to an area where the Rugii had sought refuge in 488. Here they suffered famine. They sought refuge among the Gepids, but wanting to avoid being mistreated by them crossed the Danube came under East Roman authority.

Anastasius Caesar allowed them to resettle depopulated "lands and cities" in the empire in 512. Modern scholars debate whether they were moved then to Singidunum (modern Belgrade), or first to Bassianae, and to Singidunum some decades later, by Justinian. This area had been re-acquired by the empire from the Goths, who now ruled Italy from Ravenna. Justinian integrated them into the empire as a buffer between the Romans and the more independent Lombards and Gepids to the north. Under his encouragement, the Herule king Grepes converted to Orthodox Christianity in 528 together with some nobles and twelve relatives.[...] In 549, when the Gepids fought the Romans, and Heruli fought on both sides. In any case after one generation in the Belgrade area, the Herulian federate polity in the Balkans disappears from the surviving historical records, apparently replaced by the incoming Avars.

Sarantis however shows that the Belgrade-region Heruli continued to be recruited, and to play a role in local conflicts involving the Gepids and Lombards, into the 550s. Suartas, a Herule general for the Romans, led Herule forces against the Gepids in 552 for example. However it appears that by this period the semi-independent Heruli near Belgrade became Roman provincials.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heruli
======

4) An interesting toponym could link the Drobnjaks with the Germanic tribes.
There is a village named Dobromani in Bosnia-Herzegovina, close to the Adriatic coast and to the town of Dubrovnik. See the screenshot below from Google Maps.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rOI1dRKDLAdiBThaZBbAVoSNMp1x5igR/view?usp=sharing

As a coincidence, or probably not, some 30 km northeast of it, there is a village named Njeganovići. We have again the two parts (Dobro + Njago) which create the name Dobrognago (latin) > Dobronjago (serbo-croatian) > Drobnjak. And another 30 km northeast of Njeganovići is the town of Gacko, where the remains of Nikola Rašković Drobnjak were found.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dobromani
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Njeganovi%C4%87i

The termination -man is characteristic for German names and surnames, and the termination -mani (manni) is encountered in some Germanic tribe names (Alemanni/Alamanni, Marcomanni). Dobromani is an interesting construction, maybe testifying about a mixing of some Dobronjago Vlachs with some Germans (Goths, Heruls) who settled on the Adriatic coast.

[Drvoseča]

Видим да ми је Yfull додао један SNP на нивоу FGC22061* - BY233491 • TY3093 (има само једну звездицу). Aко добро видим, делим га тренутно са подгранама FGC22054 и FT408946, као и са Живковићем из Ибарског Колашина. Да ли неко може да појасни - постоји ли могућност да се формира нова подграна, или је нешто друго ту у питању?

Да и ја мало дискутујем сам са собом - Yfull ми је одговорио:

at the moment, work is underway to introduce a new reference and the
appearance of this SNP in you is a mistake.
After a while it will be deleted.

Дакле, лажна узбуна, и лош сам узбуњивач.

[abmunteanu]

This is a two part message.

There is an interesting toponym on the Croatian Adriatic coast that could be linked to the Scandinavian hypothesis of the origin of I-FGC22045. As I already said, my father has many autosomal matches with ancestors from this region.

I am speaking about the Kvarner Gulf (Kvarner Bay).

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The Kvarner Gulf (Croatian: Kvarnerski zaljev, Italian: Golfo del Quarnaro or Carnaro, Latin: Sinus Flanaticus or Liburnicus sinus), sometimes also Kvarner Bay, is a bay in the northern Adriatic Sea, located between the Istrian peninsula and the northern Croatian Littoral mainland.

The largest islands within the Kvarner are Cres, Krk, Pag, Rab and Lošinj. A portion of the Kvarner Bay, located between Cres, Krk, Rab and Pag is also called Kvarnerić (literally "little Kvarner") or Italian: Golfo del Quarnerolo or Carnerolo, and the portion east of Krk and Rab is called Senj Channel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kvarner_Gulf

{automatic translation}
On the coast of Kvarner is the largest Croatian port Rijeka , so important sea routes run through the Kvarner Gulf: mostly through the Srednja vrata between Krk and Cres, and the Vela vrata between Cres and Istria.
https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kvarnerski_zaljev

The Kvarner coast is part of the Northern Croatian coast , and it consists of the wider Rijeka Riviera and the Vinodol coast with the Sub-Velebit coast all the way to Karlobag .
https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kvarnersko_primorje
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In the gulf is the port of Rijeka, the biggest port on the Croatian coast. Because of his strategic and commercial importance, the port was disputed by all the powers that fought in the region.

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From the 5th century onwards, the town was ruled successively by the Ostrogoths, the Byzantines, the Lombards, and the Avars. The city was burned down in 452 by the troops of Attila the Hun as part of their Aquileia campaign. Croats settled the city starting in the 7th century giving it the Croatian name, Rika svetoga Vida ("the river of Saint Vitus").

In 799 Rijeka was attacked by the Frankish troops of Charlemagne. Their Siege of Trsat was at first repulsed, during which the Frankish commander Duke Eric of Friuli was killed. However, the Frankish forces finally occupied and devastated the castle, while the Duchy of Croatia passed under the overlordship of the Carolingian Empire. From about 925, the town was part of the Kingdom of Croatia, from 1102 in personal union with Hungary. Trsat Castle and the town was rebuilt under the rule of the House of Frankopan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijeka#History

The counts of Duino (Tibein), were feudal lords of Fiume [today's Rijeka] from the early 12th century until 1337. As ministeriales of the Patriarchate of Aquileia, the family proved crucial in extending German control to the northern Adriatic coast and preventing further expansion of the Republic of Venice. The counts of Duino built a good road network over the land around the city. The Fiuman terra, their most important fief, dominated the natural routes leading from the Timavo River toward the Quarnero gulf [Kvarner Gulf]. Several castles and outposts—Senožeče, Gotnik (Guettenegg), and Prem—guarded these land routes, from the Quarnero to Carniola, a part of modern Slovenia. Traders came from Carinthian Villach, Carniolan Ljubljana (Laibach), Styrian Ptuj (Pettau), and from the German lands of the Holy Roman Empire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Rijeka
======

[abmunteanu]

I searched the etymology of the name Kvarner and did not find it on the internet. But the name is of clear Germanic origin and the root is “kvarn”. The word “kvarn” was inherited in Swedish from the Old Norse language and it means “mill” or “millstone”, so “Kvarner” probably means “Miller”. That implies Kvarner Gulf means Miller’s Gulf or Millstones’ Gulf. Maybe the name was given because the islands Krk and Cres look like an assembly of two giant millstones.

======
Kvarn: From Old Swedish kværn, kvarn, from Old Norse kvern, from Proto-Germanic *kwernō, from Proto-Indo-European *gʷerewn- (“millstone”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kvarn

Kvarn is a noun meaning 'mill' or 'grinder', used to refer to any kind of tool or machine that breaks a substance down into smaller pieces.
A kvarn can be small, for example a pepparkvarn (peppar mill), köttkvarn (meat grinder) or kaffekvarn (coffee grinder).
And it can also be a big piece of machinery, for example vattenkvarn (watermill), kvarnsten (millstone), or väderkvarn (that means 'windmill')
If you hear the word kvarn on its own with no context, it usually refers to a windmill, and one notable example is the Stockholm restaurant Kvarnen, meaning 'The Mill'[...]
https://www.thelocal.se/20190830/swedish-word-of-the-day-kvarn (disable adblocker to see the page)

https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kvarn
=====

There is also the possibility that at some time the gulf was under the control of a leader of Scandinavian origin named Kvarner. The name Kvarner (also spelled Qvarner) is encountered in Norway and Sweden. Other related names are Kvaerner and Kvarnberg.

https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?q.surname=Kvarner
https://www.ancestry.com/search/categories/40/?name=_kvarner
https://www.locatefamily.com/K/KVA/KVAERNER-1.html
https://www.locatefamily.com/K/KVA/KVARNBERG-1.html

In order for the Kvarner Gulf to get its name and then maintain it, a prolonged presence of people of Scandinavian origin who spoke their Nordic language must be presumed in the area. The Normans were speaking French and their names were also French or modified in order to be easily pronounced by the French (for example Hrolfr was modified in Rollo). And there are many other examples in the link below. So, the name was most probably not given by the Normans.

https://www.viking.no/e/france/family-names.html

Maybe the name Kvarner was given when the region was part of the Ostrogothic kingdom between 493-553. As can be seen in the article below, the Ostrogoths were present all across the Balkans and maintained their ethnic identity.

=======
The Ostrogoths were the eastern branch of the Goths. They settled and established a powerful state in Dacia, but during the late 4th century, they came under the dominion of the Huns. After the collapse of the Hunnic empire in 454, large numbers of Ostrogoths were settled by Emperor Marcian in the Roman province of Pannonia as foederati. Unlike most other foederati formations, the Goths were not absorbed into the structure and traditions of the Roman military but retained a strong identity and cohesion of their own.
[...]
In the end, after Strabo's death in 481, Zeno came to terms with Theodoric. Parts of Moesia and Dacia ripensis were ceded to the Goths, and Theodoric was named magister militum praesentalis and consul for 484.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogothic_Kingdom
======

[Мића]

I searched the etymology of the name Kvarner and did not find it on the internet. But the name is of clear Germanic origin and the root is “kvarn”. The word “kvarn” was inherited in Swedish from the Old Norse language and it means “mill” or “millstone”, so “Kvarner” probably means “Miller”. That implies Kvarner Gulf means Miller’s Gulf or Millstones’ Gulf. Maybe the name was given because the islands Krk and Cres look like an assembly of two giant millstones.

======
Kvarn: From Old Swedish kværn, kvarn, from Old Norse kvern, from Proto-Germanic *kwernō, from Proto-Indo-European *gʷerewn- (“millstone”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kvarn

Kvarn is a noun meaning 'mill' or 'grinder', used to refer to any kind of tool or machine that breaks a substance down into smaller pieces.
A kvarn can be small, for example a pepparkvarn (peppar mill), köttkvarn (meat grinder) or kaffekvarn (coffee grinder).
And it can also be a big piece of machinery, for example vattenkvarn (watermill), kvarnsten (millstone), or väderkvarn (that means 'windmill')
If you hear the word kvarn on its own with no context, it usually refers to a windmill, and one notable example is the Stockholm restaurant Kvarnen, meaning 'The Mill'[...]
https://www.thelocal.se/20190830/swedish-word-of-the-day-kvarn (disable adblocker to see the page)

https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kvarn
=====

There is also the possibility that at some time the gulf was under the control of a leader of Scandinavian origin named Kvarner. The name Kvarner (also spelled Qvarner) is encountered in Norway and Sweden. Other related names are Kvaerner and Kvarnberg.

https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?q.surname=Kvarner
https://www.ancestry.com/search/categories/40/?name=_kvarner
https://www.locatefamily.com/K/KVA/KVAERNER-1.html
https://www.locatefamily.com/K/KVA/KVARNBERG-1.html

In order for the Kvarner Gulf to get its name and then maintain it, a prolonged presence of people of Scandinavian origin who spoke their Nordic language must be presumed in the area. The Normans were speaking French and their names were also French or modified in order to be easily pronounced by the French (for example Hrolfr was modified in Rollo). And there are many other examples in the link below. So, the name was most probably not given by the Normans.

https://www.viking.no/e/france/family-names.html

Maybe the name Kvarner was given when the region was part of the Ostrogothic kingdom between 493-553. As can be seen in the article below, the Ostrogoths were present all across the Balkans and maintained their ethnic identity.

=======
The Ostrogoths were the eastern branch of the Goths. They settled and established a powerful state in Dacia, but during the late 4th century, they came under the dominion of the Huns. After the collapse of the Hunnic empire in 454, large numbers of Ostrogoths were settled by Emperor Marcian in the Roman province of Pannonia as foederati. Unlike most other foederati formations, the Goths were not absorbed into the structure and traditions of the Roman military but retained a strong identity and cohesion of their own.
[...]
In the end, after Strabo's death in 481, Zeno came to terms with Theodoric. Parts of Moesia and Dacia ripensis were ceded to the Goths, and Theodoric was named magister militum praesentalis and consul for 484.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogothic_Kingdom
======

Што је ово људи, ово је ко Максим по дивизији?

Ја мало гугл'о и наш'о:

Nakon propasti rimske Flanone antički naziv zamijenjen je nazivom Kvarner. Ime najvjerojatnije proizlazi iz latinskog naziva [mare] quaternarium, tj. more sastavljeno od četiri dijela, na čvorištu četiriju važnih plovidbenih pravaca (zapadni prema Veneciji i Ravenni, južni prema Zadru, istočni prema Senju i sjeverni prema Rijeci).
https://www.enciklopedija.hr/natuknica.aspx?ID=34883

Можда би га једно анти-спам упозорење од стране админа мало дозвало к себи, мало се претерива са дугачким а не-претерано-интелигентним писанијима

[abmunteanu]

Micha [Мића], the etymology of Kvarner, a Germanic Scandinavian word, as being from Quaternarium, a Latin word, is not really a good one. The article that you quote literally says: “the name most likely derives”, so this is not an established etymology, supported by linguists (otherwise there would be a citation from a linguistic article). It is a speculation, just like the etymology that I have proposed. However, the substitution of the sound T from Quater by the group RN, more difficult to pronounce, is unlikely, it makes no sense. 

[Gorance]

Што је ово људи, ово је ко Максим по дивизији?

Ја мало гугл'о и наш'о:
Можда би га једно анти-спам упозорење од стране админа мало дозвало к себи, мало се претерива са дугачким а не-претерано-интелигентним писанијима

Мислим да му не треба превише замерити као говорнику романског језика који, опет, кроз словенске и германске језике покушава да дође до неких закључака. Нпр, А. Лома је показао да многе речи које су наши старији научници доживљавали као романизме испадјају словенске. Можда мало вуче воду на своју воденицу,али не мислим да спамује.

[abmunteanu]

Gorance, I try to be objective and I try to find the etymologies that seem the most logical. I don’t care if a word is originary from a Romance language, a Germanic language or a Slavic language. I only try to find the correct etymology, the true etymology. As an aside, I am fluent in English (Germanic) and French (Romance), and I can understand written and spoken Russian (Slavic). I am not favoring a language family over another.

In this case, an anonymous article on the internet says that Kvarner is from the Latin word Quaternarium, itself part of the expression “Mare Quaternarium”, apparently used as a name for the Kvarner Gulf by the Romans. I searched for this “Mare Quaternarium” on the internet and there is no mention of it in ancient documents or in any article or book. There are a lot of history and language books/articles on Academia.edu, Google Books and Scribd, but there is no mention of this “Mare Quaternarium”. It is probably an invention of someone who wanted to offer a Romance etymology for the Kvarner Gulf, because “Mare Quaternarium” appears on only a handful of mainly travel articles about the gulf.

I think that the Scandinavian etymology proposed by me is more accurate. The Ostrogoths, a people of Scandinavian origin, had a kingdom that included the Kvarner Gulf and Kvarner is actually a Scandinavian name derived from the Germanic word “Kvarn”. We know that some Scandinavians settled on the Adriatic coast on the land that surrounds Kvarner Gulf, because some branches of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup are found there.

This was also the case for the etymology of Drobnjak. I did not accept that the name comes from the Slavic word for “liver”, as some writers (not linguists) have suggested in the past. And I proposed an alternative etymology, as coming from the Vlach name Dobroneagu (Dobronjago in Serbo-Croatian), a theory that is supported by the name Bratigna Dobrognago from Dubrovnik’s archives in 1285, the toponyms Dobri Nugo and Njego Vuđa in northern Montenegro near Šavnik and the toponym Dobroneagu in Făgăraș, Transylvania.

I think the toponyms can help in searching for the ancestor of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup or for the ancestors of the Drobnjak tribe.

Maybe some are annoyed by my speculations. Surprisingly, all those who expressed their annoyance on this thread don’t have the I-FGC22061 haplogroup, so it is strange that they are so interested in a haplogroup that is not theirs, and actually is a haplogroup that is at most shared by 3% of the Serbian male population.

Those that are annoyed can do two things:

1) Don’t read my posts. It is easy to just ignore a forum user.

2) Implore the Serbian DNA Project staff to somehow arrange for the remains of Nikola Rašković Drobnjak to be DNA tested in an advanced laboratory, that will do a WGS test. The Y-DNA and mtDNA results can then be uploaded to YFull and the autosomal result can be uploaded to MyHeritage, GEDmatch and FTDNA. We will have all the answers that we want and there will be no more speculations. I posted my first message about Nikola Rašković Drobnjak on 28.12.2022. Then on 14.01.2023 I suggested that maybe the advanced DNA testing could be done by Praxis Genomics LLC, an American company owned by a Hungarian-American that did the test for the remains of the son of Hungarian king Matthias Corvinus. Almost 7 months have passed since then and we have no update on this. I think an update is neccessary. Has the Serbian DNA Project staff contacted Praxis Genomics LLC? What was their response? How much the tests costs? Are there any logistical problems with the transport of the DNA sample to the US? Are there discussions with other DNA companies for the test? How much more have to wait those that are annoyed by my speculations and want to know the truth about the Drobnjaks?

As a conclusion, all jokes aside, I think some are overly dramatic when it comes to the Drobnjaks and it’s hard to understand why.

[Милош]

Видим да ми је Yfull додао један SNP на нивоу FGC22061* - BY233491 • TY3093 (има само једну звездицу). Aко добро видим, делим га тренутно са подгранама FGC22054 и FT408946, као и са Живковићем из Ибарског Колашина. Да ли неко може да појасни - постоји ли могућност да се формира нова подграна, или је нешто друго ту у питању?

Издвојена је нова грана испод FT408946.

То је Y237563, коју деле Трифуновић и Орловић из Иб. Колашина (не Живковић). Тренутно је видљива једино на live стаблу.

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/I-FT408946/

[Željko]

Издвојена је нова грана испод FT408946.

То је Y237563, коју деле Трифуновић и Орловић из Иб. Колашина (не Живковић). Тренутно је видљива једино на live стаблу.

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/I-FT408946/

Пејовић, Орловић, Живковић и Трифуновић су даклен FT408946+, а Трифуновић и Орловић су сад издвојили нову Y237563. Јел знамо ко је формирао Y264438 са Пејовићем? (није наведено презиме на yfull за YF105895)

[gillle]

Пејовић, Орловић, Живковић и Трифуновић су даклен FT408946+, а Трифуновић и Орловић су сад издвојили нову Y237563. Јел знамо ко је формирао Y264438 са Пејовићем? (није наведено презиме на yfull за YF105895)

Црнадак / Никољдан / Друговићи / Лакташи

[Željko]

Читао сам о археогенетичком истраживању и анализи скелетних остатака кнеза Николе Рашковића, па се питах аkо је на неки начин изводљиво дубиско тестирање Y-ДНК о којем пише монтеану. Јел сачуван узорак у лабораторији који се може послати за даљње тестирање? Можда није баш једноставно (и приступачнo) као са букалним брисом или пљувачком, па ме занима ако неко зна нешто више о томе.

[Željko]

Црнадак / Никољдан / Друговићи / Лакташи

Хвала!

[abmunteanu]

Željko, if you want to know if there is an update about the testing of Nikola Rašković Drobnjak, you can send private messages to НиколаВук and Јовица Кртинић. Both are active members of the forum, so you can find their messages very easily. НиколаВук answered some of my questions about the Drobnjak prince, and Јовица Кртинић has participated to the unearthing of the remains in 2018, as you can see in the video below:

https://youtu.be/wCkp28lzoPk?t=26

If you want to know about the cost of an in-depth test, you can contact Praxis Genomics LLC, the American company that did the test for the remains of Matthias Corvinus’ son. Use the form on their “Contact Us” page.

https://www.praxisgenomics.com/

In my opinion, I don’t think that an advanced DNA testing of Nikola Rašković Drobnjak’s remains is taken into account by the Serbian DNA Project. You can see that I did not receive any answer about the testing update. I think that the test results (especially the autosomal DNA) could challenge the belief that the Drobnjaks were a pure Serbian tribe, and many don't want this. I don’t know how this belief has originated, because in the beginning the Drobnjaks were a tribe of traveling traders in the Balkans, and some of their members were picked from the various peoples that inhabited the Balkans at that time. Eventually they became Serbs, but their genes were from the peoples from whom they originated.

There is a similar situation in Rumania. In 1920 an untouched tomb of a Wallachian voivode was discovered. See below an entire book written in 2017 about this archeological discovery.

https://www.academia.edu/51106158/AL_WA_prin%C5%A3ul_negru_al_Vlahiei_%C5%9Fi_vremurile_sale

In 2012 some DNA testing was performed on the remains and the researchers said that the voivode was of possible Germanic origin on his maternal side, having the mtDNA haplogroup H3v2.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_H_(mtDNA)#Subclades

The research project was supported exclusively with money from the state budget, which is extremely important. One of the biggest controversies in Rumanian historiography is the origin of the founder of Wallachia (Radu Negru or Negru Vodă). Some historians say that he was of Cuman origin on his paternal side, because his father was named “Thocomerius” in a document written in Latin by the Hungarian king of the time.

https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negru_Vod%C4%83

The voivode buried in the tomb discovered in 1920 is probably a descendant of Negru Vodă. It would have been logical to do a Y-DNA test and an autosomal DNA test and put an end to the controversy about the origin of Negru Vodă. But no, apparently there was no Y-DNA test and no autosomal DNA test. They were probably done, but the results are not public, they are kept secret. Why? Possibly because the results are not in line with the official historiography. What is the most strange in all of this, is that nobody cares. The Rumanian historians should request that the 2012 DNA test results be made public, or the tests done again now that the testing is more advanced than in 2012. But the Rumanian historians are paid by the state via the Rumanian Academy, so they take the money and keep their mouths shut in order not to derange the founding myths of the state. Of course, by doing that they reveal themselves as not being true historians, only paid servants of the state bureaucracy. It’s their choice, and history will judge them eventually.

Željko, there is another possibility to find more about the ancient Drobnjak DNA.

I exchanged some e-mails with A. Jakšić in February. In one of them I asked him the following: <<Since you say in your book [about the Drobnjaks] that Pavle Abazović is buried in Poscenje, have you tried to convince the Serbian DNA project to do a DNA test on his remains?>>

A. Jakšić responded: <<There might be big news here in the next few years, but it would likely to be a local effort, outside of “Serbian DNA project”.>>

You can contact A. Jakšić ( [email protected] ), maybe he has something new about his project to test the remains of Pavle Abazović.

[Ojler]

...
In my opinion, I don’t think that an advanced DNA testing of Nikola Rašković Drobnjak’s remains is taken into account by the Serbian DNA Project. You can see that I did not receive any answer about the testing update. I think that the test results (especially the autosomal DNA) could challenge the belief that the Drobnjaks were a pure Serbian tribe, and many don't want this. I don’t know how this belief has originated, because in the beginning the Drobnjaks were a tribe of traveling traders in the Balkans, and some of their members were picked from the various peoples that inhabited the Balkans at that time. Eventually they became Serbs, but their genes were from the peoples from whom they originated.
...

You really have no idea what are the reasons, so do not troll here and do not spread fake accusations! 

[CosicZ]

I think that the test results (especially the autosomal DNA) could challenge the belief that the Drobnjaks were a pure Serbian tribe, and many don't want this. I don’t know how this belief has originated, because in the beginning the Drobnjaks were a tribe of traveling traders in the Balkans, and some of their members were picked from the various peoples that inhabited the Balkans at that time. Eventually they became Serbs, but their genes were from the peoples from whom they originated.

There is a similar situation in Rumania. In 1920 an untouched tomb of a Wallachian voivode was discovered. See below an entire book written in 2017 about this archeological discovery.

https://www.academia.edu/51106158/AL_WA_prin%C5%A3ul_negru_al_Vlahiei_%C5%9Fi_vremurile_sale

In 2012 some DNA testing was performed on the remains and the researchers said that the voivode was of possible Germanic origin on his maternal side, having the mtDNA haplogroup H3v2.

MtDNA haplogroup H3v2 may have a similar origin to I1-FGC22045. At http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_by_group/h3p-z_genbank_sequences.htm there are tests from Scotland JQ703260 and Finland MZ190831 which have H3v2a. YF079159 (=YF071129) from https://www.yfull.com/mtree/H3v2a/ is also from Scotland https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y189956/ . At https://www.yfull.com/mtree/H3v-a1/ is an Iron Age sample from the Czech Republic I15044, KY409494.1 from Sardinia, YF121282 possibly from Poland https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/I-BY82754/ and YF008441 from Sweden https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/I-Y88604/ . So it seems to have spread with the Scandinavians.

About autosomal genetics of Serbs:
https://www.poreklo.rs/2018/06/10/srpski-genetski-sklop-koliko-smo-sloveni/
https://www.poreklo.rs/2022/09/29/video-predavanje-prof-dr-karlesa-lalueze-foksa-slovenske-migracie-i-geneticko-poreklo-balkanskih-naroda/

[НиколаВук]

In my opinion, I don’t think that an advanced DNA testing of Nikola Rašković Drobnjak’s remains is taken into account by the Serbian DNA Project. You can see that I did not receive any answer about the testing update. I think that the test results (especially the autosomal DNA) could challenge the belief that the Drobnjaks were a pure Serbian tribe, and many don't want this. I don’t know how this belief has originated, because in the beginning the Drobnjaks were a tribe of traveling traders in the Balkans, and some of their members were picked from the various peoples that inhabited the Balkans at that time. Eventually they became Serbs, but their genes were from the peoples from whom they originated.

Ово су већ тешке оптужбе и клевете од човека који овде често износи свакакве "хипотезе" које се косе са логиком и народски речено "здравим разумом". Ако већ у својем резоновању које личи на теорије завера сматра да научници из његове земље прећуткују неке резултате, онда такав исти начин размишљања не може приписивати нама јер то својим досадашњим радом, и то сопственим снагама и без икаквог учешћа или подршке државе Србије (напротив, често нам управо државни органи попут царине отежавају и компликују истраживања) никако нисмо заслужили. Фасцинантно ми је како ликови попут њега замишљају да смо ми некаква државна институција у којој намерно саботирамо истраживања која смо сами покренули.  Али очигледно је све могуће и све је реално када неко поседује такав умострој (mindset).

Овом приликом те опомињем због клевета које си овде написао и позивам те да се за њих моментално извиниш. Нисам имао намеру да на твоје баљезгарије одговарам директно на енглеском, имаш Гугл преводилац па преводи.