Дробњаци - Новљани I1>P109>FGC22045>FGC22061

[сɣнце]

Оно што је мени лично занимљиво је да индицира долазак моје мајчинске гране са Викинзима јер је грана H17 типична за Брите и Скандинавце.

Моја је H18* и веома типична за Данце.

[Посо]

Интересантна ствар у вези назива Новљани:

Vocotigh Giunachus, de Draceuiza (1440)
Vucotich Junachus, de Drobgnacha (1445)

[Exiled]

Интересантна ствар у вези назива Новљани:

Vocotigh Giunachus, de Draceuiza (1440)
Vucotich Junachus, de Drobgnacha (1445)

?

[Посо]

Још један Дробњак из Драчевице, ако се ради о истој личности:

Ratchouich Giurachius/Gurachius, de Drobignaci (1443-1444)
Ratchouigh Giurasius, de Sdraceuiza (1440)

[Aca]

Занимљиви подаци о Норманима у служби Византије.

https://www.thefrenchhistorypodcast.com/74-chapter-4-breaking-byzantium/?fbclid=IwAR0CDLSF2B5J7DRkare0Tz4D5iBI9EOZKeNz68SoKDIa15Na7n5Gj2b9Zew

"Regardless of intent, following 1047 Normans became a regular fixture in the Byzantine army, largely in the east. The Normans were best employed as heavy cavalry and were less skilled as infantry. Cavalry were wasted in the rocky Balkans, but they were ideal for the plains of eastern Anatolia. The Byzantines sent the majority of their Norman soldiers east where they served as heavy cavalry to rout Turkic raiders, who entered the empire as light cavalry."

"Hervé Frankopoulos became the greatest of the Normans within Byzantium, having served since the 1030s and made a lord in the early 1040s. Around 1050 he campaigned in the northern Balkans against the Pechenegs, a semi-nomadic group of Turkic raiders."

"Aside from those bordering the empire, the subject peoples within the empire recognized that the central Greek rule was in decline. One of the first and largest of these was the Bulgar Revolt of 1072, during which the local nobility attempted to recreate the Bulgar Empire. The Byzantines successfully crushed the revolt, with the help of their mercenaries, among them the Normans led by Roussel de Bailleul. After Crépin’s sudden and mysterious death in 1073, Bailleul became the undisputed leader of the Normans in the Eastern Roman Empire."

[Неродимац]

Не знам да ли је помињано али мислим да није, сада сам нашао нешто па топографској војној карти село Дробњаци. Оно што је додатно интересантно поред њега се налази село Бошњаци. Иначе села се налазе идпод Авале.

[abmunteanu]

############
I left this thread because I was at first accused of spamming the thread, then of hijacking/privatizing the thread, then of devaluating and burying the thread because other forum members apparently refused to post in it alongside me. All were false accusations, as can be seen now. Nobody refused to post in the thread because of me. And the fact that I gave too much importance to the autosomal matches (of which I was also accused of) helped me to develop the hypothesis presented below.
############

This is a three part message.

The new hypothesis about the arrival of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup in the Balkans is named the Saxon Hypothesis. This hypothesis can explain the presence of the haplogroup in Transylvania and the Balkan countries.

My father has a few autosomal matches that have ancestors with the surname Kramar. I searched this name and found that "kramar” was the name given to the leader of a Vlach caravan.

=====
The Vlach cheese was reputable because of fat, and in 1325 sold one libra for 10 folars compared to other cheese that sold for 8 folars. In 1420 Vlach cheese was sold for 15 folars. With their caravans, led by kramar, mostly composed of horses numbering between 10–100, they conducted a large part of the trade between inland and coastal cities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs_in_medieval_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina#Culture
=====

The name Kramar is derived from the German name Kramer/Krämer, which meant traveling merchant.

======
[KRAMER] German and Dutch: occupational name for a shopkeeper or trader, from an agent derivative of Middle High German, Middle Low German krām ‘trading post, tent, booth’. This surname is also found in some other parts of Europe, e.g. in Britain, Poland, and France (Alsace and Lorraine); In part, Kramer is a Gottscheerish (i.e. Gottschee German) surname, originating from the Kočevsko region in Lower Carniola, Slovenia (see Kocevar ). Compare Kraemer .

Americanized or Germanized form of Polish Kramarz , Czech Kramář, Slovak Kramár, Slovenian (compare 3 below), Croatian, Ukrainian, and Belorussian Kramar.

https://www.familysearch.org/en/surname?surname=KRAMER

In Middle Low German during the Late Middle Ages, Kramer meant "travelling merchant". The meaning later changed to "merchants trading with different rather small things".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kramer_(surname)
======

The fact that the Vlachs have taken a German word to describe their caravan leader means an early contact between the two populations, Vlachs and Germans. This early contact could explain the apparition of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup in the Vlach population.

The Croatians say that the Kramar name is more widely encountered in Prelog, in northern Croatia, close to Cvetlin, from where are originary the Kramar ancestors of the autosomal matches of my father.

On the other hand they say that the name is frequent (1 in 9 families) in Maline, a village from Bosnia-Herzegovina close to Travnik, the town from where the Drobnjaks originated.

https://actacroatica.com/en/surname/Kramar/

=======
According to Serbian historian Andrija Luburić (1930), by oral tradition their origin [of the Drobnjaks] was from Travnik in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and initially they were called Novljan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drobnjaci#History
=======

According to the Serbian Wikipedia a caravan leader was named Primichur or Kramar. The name Kramar was borrowed from the Saxon miners, with whom the caravaneers had trade relations.

=======
У средњовјековним трговачким караванима, примићуром (крамаром) се називао старјешина поносника. Назив примићур је византијског поријекла, али од латинског „primus in cera“ и обично је означавао катунара. Ријеч крамар (старија њемачка ријеч, позајмљена од рудара, Саса) позната је и данас, а јавља се у средњовјековним споменицима.
[...]
У своје вријеме, записани су и познати крамари: Хлапац Станковић, Херак Милошевић, Дубравац Милићевић... Сви крамари поменути у архивским књигама, били су власи, из данашњих области у Херцеговини и Црној Гори, односно катуна: Бањани, Буквићи, Бурмази, Дробњаци, Журовићи, Малешевци, Мириловићи, Перветинићи, Пилатовци, Предојевићи, Томићи и остали.

{automatic translation}
In medieval trade caravans, the head of the pride was called a primichur [primićur] or kramar. The name primićur is of Byzantine origin, from the Latin "primus in cera" and usually meant the leader of a katun [village]. The word kramar (an older German word, borrowed from the Saxon miners [Sas]) is still known today, and appears in medieval monuments.
[...]
In their time, famous shopkeepers were also recorded: Hlapac Stanković, Herak Milošević, Dubravac Milićević... All the shopkeepers mentioned in the archive books were Vlachs, from today's areas in Herzegovina and Montenegro, i.e. katuna: Banjani, Bukvici, Burmazi, Drobnjaci, Žurovići, Maleševci, Mirilovići, Pervetinići, Pilatovići, Predojevići, Tomići and others.

https://tinyurl.com/primichur-kramar (original article on Serbian Wikipedia)
=======

My father (Constantin Munteanu) has autosomal matches who have ancestors with almost all the surnames mentioned above.

[abmunteanu]

It is interesting that a Saxon is named Sas in the Serbo-Croatian language, but also in the Rumanian language, although the two languages are very different. That means the name Sas has migrated along with the Saxons. In Transylvania (from 1918 part of Rumania, before that part of Austria-Hungary) there was a sizable Saxon population (hundreds of thousands) right until the end of the 20th century, when the vast majority of them emigrated to Germany. Apparently the medieval Saxon miners from Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Macedonia came from Transylvania.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvanian_Saxons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxons_in_medieval_Serbia
https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%C8%99i
https://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B8

Let’s see what Wikipedia has to say about the Saxons from Serbia, Bosnia and Montenegro.

======
{automatic translation}
Saxons are a Germanic tribe whose origins were in the area of today's northern Germany. In the late Roman Empire, the name was used as a designation for German coastal raiders, and also as a word with a meaning similar to that of the later word "Viking". [...]It is possible that there is only one classical reference to a minor homeland of an early Saxon tribe, but it is disputed. According to this proposal, it is believed that the area that the Saxons settled at the earliest was Nordalbingia. This general area is close to the likely homeland of the Angles.

In Serbia and Bosnia in the middle of the 13th century, the development of mining — the main source of wealth in medieval Serbia — took place thanks to German miners who brought developed mining production technology. In Serbian sources they are called Saxons, while in Dubrovnik they appear under the names Alemani, Alamani, Teotonici, Tedesi. It is widely believed that they came from Slovakia and Transylvania. Serbian rulers hired them in most of the old mines in Serbia and Bosnia.

King Geza II of Hungary invited Flemish and Saxon miners to his country, gave them great privileges and settled them in Spiš County and Transylvania. And Andrew I [of Hungary] issued a charter in 1224, confirming the self-governing privileges of the Saxons in southern Transylvania. The borders of the Saxon lands were determined and their division into seats was carried out.

A part of the Saxons also settled in Serbia and Bosnia in the middle of the 13th century. It is not known why they came here. The Mongol invasion of 1241 has been claimed as a possible reason. It was believed that he led them to flee here, but the invitation by the Serbian king Stefan Uroš I (1243—1276) to settle in Serbia may also have played a role. Konstantin Jiriček believes that the Saxons came from Spiška County in Slovakia, and he added Banska Štjavnica and Kremnica as possible places. The first reliable information about the Saxons dates from August 23, 1254. It is about the oath of King Uroš I to the Duke of Dubrovnik and the municipality, allowing them to freely go to Brskovo. The Saxons are also mentioned in Uroš's charter to the Monastery of the Holy Virgin in Ston. The Saxons founded Brskovo Square and settled in it. They opened mines, began exploiting silver ore and had a certain autonomy from the king (their prince, church and judges for mutual disputes). The mining and trading settlement, the square, during its heyday, grew into a smaller town, around 1280. in 1433, according to the Dubrovnik residents, Brskovo was abandoned. Some areas near the Ljubija mine near Prijedor are also named after Saxons (Saski do, Saski potok, Sasina). On the Macedonian mountain Osogovo there is also a "Saxon [Sas]" mine. They came to that area at the invitation of the Bulgarian emperor Ivan Šishman. Saxon mines from the 13th century can be seen on the grounds of Đavolje varoši, not far from Kuršumlija.

https://tinyurl.com/saxons-serbia (original article on Serbian Wikipedia)

Brskovo (Montenegrin: Брсково) is a village in northern Montenegro, within the Municipality of Mojkovac which used to have silver mines and a mint. [...] The Latin name for Brskovo was Brescia, and it used to be the centre of a district. Having been regularly visited by merchants from Kotor and Dubrovnik, this town with the Virgin's church administered by the Dominicans from Dubrovnik, had been at its zenith in the 1280s, while from 1350 onwards, it completely declined. As a mine, Brskovo was established by the Saxons inhabiting this area. They had their prince and Catholic priests. During its golden age, at the time of Stefan Uroš I, a customs office existed in Brskovo as well as, a century later, a consulate of Dubrovnik.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brskovo

The original settlement from the 9th century on the spot of the present town of Pljevlja was named Breznik, after the river of Breznica, and belonged to the Nemanic Dynasty landlords during the time of the Serbian Medieval State. Since the middle of the 10th century this settlement was within the center of the Serbian Raska Medieval State. In the 13th century, the Serbian Medieval State experienced huge economic growth, when the mining was established here in Pljevlja area, performed by the skillful Saxons – miners of the German origin.

https://www.panacomp.net/pljevlja/

Osogovo (Bulgarian/Macedonian: Осогово, or Osogovska Planina or Osogovski Planini (Осоговска Планина or Осоговски Планини), is a mountain range and ski resort between the south-western part of Bulgaria (Kyustendil Province) and the north-eastern part of North Macedonia (Kočani and Kriva Palanka municipalities). [...] There are many legends about the origin of name Osogovo, but the most famous one is that the area was briefly settled by Transylvanian Saxons miners who were mining gold and silver in the region in the past.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osogovo
======

[abmunteanu]

Now let’s see what information is available about the Saxons from Transylvania and their relationship with the Vlachs.

The Vlachs are known for the fact that they transported salt to the Balkans with their caravans, salt extracted from mines, for example the Transylvanian mines of Praid (Harghita county), Turda (Cluj county), Rona de Sus (Maramureș county) and Ocna Sibiului (Sibiu county), but also the salt extracted from the Adriatic Sea from Dubrovnik, which they took to Prijepolje in Serbia. Salt was obviously important for cheese, a Vlach speciality, but at that time salt was also used for long-term storage of other foods. The Saxons who exploited the salt mines thus came into contact with the Vlachs, to whom they sold salt. It is normal that some Saxon miners became Vlachs over time, abandoning the mines for the traveling work in open air.

=====
{automatic translation}
The traditional basic occupation of Istro-Romanians [Vlachs from Istria] was shepherding, but they also had other occupations. As early as the 14th century it is attested that they formed caravans with which they transported to the markets their dairy products and various other goods, for example lead from Bosnia to Ragusa (today Dubrovnik) and salt from the Adriatic coast inland. In Ragusan trade, “caseus vlachescus” or “vlachiscus” (”brença”, i.e. cheese, as it appears in a document from 1357) had such importance that it was also used as a means of payment, and its price was set by the authorities.

https://r3media.ro/istroromanii-o-enigma-a-istoriei-si-un-miracol-al-romanitatii/

{automatic translation}
In the second half of the 13th century, Saxon settlers, [called] "guests" in the documents, were brought to Turda (Cluj county, Transylvania) to work on the exploitation of salt mines.

http://www.pensiuneacheileapusenilor.ro/ro/salina-turdam-41

{automatic translation}
In 1206, [Hungarian] King Andrew II names the inhabitants near Alba-Iulia (Alba county, Transylvania) - from the villages of Cricău, Ighiu and Romos as Saxons and "primi hospites regni". It is interesting to follow here what was the initial role that these Germans had to play in this area. It seems that their role was not only to control the most important places of loading and commercialization of the salt production from Transylvania that was transported via Mureş to the west. There are indications that the initiative for the opening of gold mining in the Apuseni Mountains would have started from them.

https://magazines.ulbsibiu.ro/arheologie/publicatii/bibliotheca/relatii%20interetnice%20in%20transilvania/maria/articol1.htm
=======

German-speaking settlers were brought during the time of the Hungarian King Geza II, but also during his successors. The Teutonic Knights, while they were present in Transylvania, also brought German settlers, who remained after the expulsion of the knights by the Hungarian king.

==========
{automatic translation}
The reasons for the settlement of the Teutonic Knights in Burzenland [Țara Bîrsei] included not only the conversion of Romanians to Catholicism, but also the exploitation of the gold and silver mines of Transylvania.

The Order of the Teutonic Knights built numerous fortified wooden fortresses in Țara Bîrsei (during the 14 years of their stay), with the support of the locals, among them in Feldioara [a village close to Făgăraș], the Black Citadel, the Citadel of the Cross. It colonized a significant number of mostly German peasants and craftsmen, who provided them with food and the necessary craft products. At the time, they were called Saxons and settled alongside the local population, made up of Romanians, Slavs and Pechenegs. The first towns established or strongly developed by newcomers were Feldioara, Brașov, Codlea, Rîșnov and Prejmer.

https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinul_Cavalerilor_Teutoni

{automatic translation}
The colonization of the Saxons in Transylvania was initiated by King Géza II (1141-1162) of Hungary, being essentially justified by economic (regional economic/commercial development) and military (more precisely defensive) reasons. For several centuries, the main task of the German settlers was to defend the eastern, southern and southeastern borders of the Hungarian kingdom, which also included Transylvania in the past (more precisely in the Middle Ages). The process of German colonization in Transylvania continued until the end of the 13th century and the beginning of the next century. Newer sources launch the hypothesis that the first German settlers settled in Transylvania are, in fact, some of the Germans who, from April to October 1096, had participated in the Peasants' Crusade.

At the beginning of the colonization, the name "Saxons" was given to poor miners and convicts from Saxony.

https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%C8%99i
=========

The Saxon theory is the following:

The Saxons are mentioned as having originated from Nordalbingia, which is a territory in northern Germany at the border with Denmark.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordalbingia

One of the Saxon miners who arrived in Transylvania around 1200 CE had the I-FGC22045 haplogroup (possibly being of Scandinavian origin on his paternal side). This explains the presence of the haplogroup in Transylvania. Some of his sons then went to work in the mines of Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro or Macedonia which were also managed by Saxons. Then some of their descendants joined the Vlachs who were traveling all across the Balkans. As the Vlachs have participated in the formation of all the peoples from the Balkans, the haplogroup is encountered today in all the Balkan countries.

[Exiled]

Now let’s see what information is available about the Saxons from Transylvania and their relationship with the Vlachs.

The Vlachs are known for the fact that they transported salt to the Balkans with their caravans, salt extracted from mines, for example the Transylvanian mines of Praid (Harghita county), Turda (Cluj county), Rona de Sus (Maramureș county) and Ocna Sibiului (Sibiu county), but also the salt extracted from the Adriatic Sea from Dubrovnik, which they took to Prijepolje in Serbia. Salt was obviously important for cheese, a Vlach speciality, but at that time salt was also used for long-term storage of other foods. The Saxons who exploited the salt mines thus came into contact with the Vlachs, to whom they sold salt. It is normal that some Saxon miners became Vlachs over time, abandoning the mines for the traveling work in open air.

=====
{automatic translation}
The traditional basic occupation of Istro-Romanians [Vlachs from Istria] was shepherding, but they also had other occupations. As early as the 14th century it is attested that they formed caravans with which they transported to the markets their dairy products and various other goods, for example lead from Bosnia to Ragusa (today Dubrovnik) and salt from the Adriatic coast inland. In Ragusan trade, “caseus vlachescus” or “vlachiscus” (”brença”, i.e. cheese, as it appears in a document from 1357) had such importance that it was also used as a means of payment, and its price was set by the authorities.

https://r3media.ro/istroromanii-o-enigma-a-istoriei-si-un-miracol-al-romanitatii/

{automatic translation}
In the second half of the 13th century, Saxon settlers, [called] "guests" in the documents, were brought to Turda (Cluj county, Transylvania) to work on the exploitation of salt mines.

http://www.pensiuneacheileapusenilor.ro/ro/salina-turdam-41

{automatic translation}
In 1206, [Hungarian] King Andrew II names the inhabitants near Alba-Iulia (Alba county, Transylvania) - from the villages of Cricău, Ighiu and Romos as Saxons and "primi hospites regni". It is interesting to follow here what was the initial role that these Germans had to play in this area. It seems that their role was not only to control the most important places of loading and commercialization of the salt production from Transylvania that was transported via Mureş to the west. There are indications that the initiative for the opening of gold mining in the Apuseni Mountains would have started from them.

https://magazines.ulbsibiu.ro/arheologie/publicatii/bibliotheca/relatii%20interetnice%20in%20transilvania/maria/articol1.htm
=======

German-speaking settlers were brought during the time of the Hungarian King Geza II, but also during his successors. The Teutonic Knights, while they were present in Transylvania, also brought German settlers, who remained after the expulsion of the knights by the Hungarian king.

==========
{automatic translation}
The reasons for the settlement of the Teutonic Knights in Burzenland [Țara Bîrsei] included not only the conversion of Romanians to Catholicism, but also the exploitation of the gold and silver mines of Transylvania.

The Order of the Teutonic Knights built numerous fortified wooden fortresses in Țara Bîrsei (during the 14 years of their stay), with the support of the locals, among them in Feldioara [a village close to Făgăraș], the Black Citadel, the Citadel of the Cross. It colonized a significant number of mostly German peasants and craftsmen, who provided them with food and the necessary craft products. At the time, they were called Saxons and settled alongside the local population, made up of Romanians, Slavs and Pechenegs. The first towns established or strongly developed by newcomers were Feldioara, Brașov, Codlea, Rîșnov and Prejmer.

https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinul_Cavalerilor_Teutoni

{automatic translation}
The colonization of the Saxons in Transylvania was initiated by King Géza II (1141-1162) of Hungary, being essentially justified by economic (regional economic/commercial development) and military (more precisely defensive) reasons. For several centuries, the main task of the German settlers was to defend the eastern, southern and southeastern borders of the Hungarian kingdom, which also included Transylvania in the past (more precisely in the Middle Ages). The process of German colonization in Transylvania continued until the end of the 13th century and the beginning of the next century. Newer sources launch the hypothesis that the first German settlers settled in Transylvania are, in fact, some of the Germans who, from April to October 1096, had participated in the Peasants' Crusade.

At the beginning of the colonization, the name "Saxons" was given to poor miners and convicts from Saxony.

https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%C8%99i
=========

The Saxon theory is the following:

The Saxons are mentioned as having originated from Nordalbingia, which is a territory in northern Germany at the border with Denmark.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordalbingia

One of the Saxon miners who arrived in Transylvania around 1200 CE had the I-FGC22045 haplogroup (possibly being of Scandinavian origin on his paternal side). This explains the presence of the haplogroup in Transylvania. Some of his sons then went to work in the mines of Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro or Macedonia which were also managed by Saxons. Then some of their descendants joined the Vlachs who were traveling all across the Balkans. As the Vlachs have participated in the formation of all the peoples from the Balkans, the haplogroup is encountered today in all the Balkan countries.

You have me at AS matches as well. Could you tell me and explain me how? Type Bojan Drobnjak at your match search. Did we moved from Wallachia to Drobnjak or was it opposite?

[Слобо]

abmunteanu, nice article about "Sasi" on the portal Poreklo

https://www.poreklo.rs/2013/10/13/cocici-sasi-medju-srbima/

Bit old, but I am sure, somebody can refresh the subject a little bit, here, on this forum…

[CosicZ]

=========

The Saxon theory is the following:

The Saxons are mentioned as having originated from Nordalbingia, which is a territory in northern Germany at the border with Denmark.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordalbingia

One of the Saxon miners who arrived in Transylvania around 1200 CE had the I-FGC22045 haplogroup (possibly being of Scandinavian origin on his paternal side). This explains the presence of the haplogroup in Transylvania. Some of his sons then went to work in the mines of Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro or Macedonia which were also managed by Saxons. Then some of their descendants joined the Vlachs who were traveling all across the Balkans. As the Vlachs have participated in the formation of all the peoples from the Balkans, the haplogroup is encountered today in all the Balkan countries.

https://translate.google.com/
Welcome back.

So far, I-FGC22045 has not been found in the north and west of Europe, but only in the southeast and east.
YFull estimated that the most recent common ancestor of the tested members of I-FGC22045 lived most likely around 1200 years ago https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-FGC22045/ . Also, that there is a 95% chance that he lived between 1700 and 750 years ago. It is more likely that he lived in the middle of that period rather than at its beginning or end.

FTDNA estimated that the most recent common ancestor of tested I-FGC22045 members lived most likely around 707 CE https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/I-FGC22045/tree ( this tree matches https://www.yfull.com /tree/I-FGC22052/ ).

Based on this, it's really unlikely that I-FGC22045 came with the Saxons to Transylvania or the Balkans 800 years ago, and the Normans or Varangians don't fare too well either. Perhaps the Franks would fit in better, but they were present only in the western Balkans, so I think the answer should be sought in the peoples who arrived in this area more than 1200 years ago.

[abmunteanu]

This is a two part message.

Exiled, how you are related to my father can be discovered from the common autosomal matches. You said that you have tested at three companies, but I only found you as a match on FTDNA. Maybe you are also a match on other sites, but under a pseudonym. If you have GEDmatch number, you can post it here or send me a private message. My father’s GEDmatch number is T393477. On FTDNA you appear as having three DNA segments in common with my father, two on chr. 17 and one on chr. 1. The common matches with similar DNA segments don’t offer a lot of information. S. Kniffen is according to her tree an American of British descent who has the same segment in common on chr.1. N. Nestorov (Bulgarian, Macedonian?), M. Bogavac (Montenegrin?) and L. Banagis (Greek) seem to have segments more or less superimposed with the ones from chr. 17. So, this is a situation where the genealogical relation is not easy to discover. GEDmatch is a much better option than FTDNA in this case. You can also look at your autosomal matches and see if there are any from Transylvania, especially from Brașov county, where Făgăraș is located. The problem is that you don’t have the I-FGC22061 haplogroup, so apparently you are not related to my father on the line that probably came from Transylvania. Also, you don’t have a tree, so I cannot search your ancestral surnames in the lists of autosomal matches of my father.

In my opinion the original name of the Drobnjaks was Dobroneagu, written as Dobrognago in the Dubrovnik archives. They were probably Vlachs from the Făgăraș region (which is exactly at the border of Transylvania and Wallachia) who traveled regularly to the southern Balkans, where some of them settled and became the Drobnjak tribe. I base this opinion on the toponyms that exists in both areas, Făgăraș and southern Balkans, especially Montenegro. In the Făgăraș mountains there is a river and an area named Dobroneagu. In northern Montenegro there are two villages named Dobri Nugo (Добри Нуго) and Njegovuđa (Његовуђа) which are close to Žabljak. I already spoke about that.

But lately I discovered other another interesting toponym. In the Făgăraș mountains there is a peak named Negoiu. This name was created by combining the name Neagu with the Slavic termination "oi" and the Rumanian termination “u” (Negoiu = Neagu + oi + u).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negoiu_Peak

There is a similar name in Montenegro, the mountain Njegoš, which I think was created from the name Njago/Njego and the termination “oš” ( Njegoš = Njago/Njego + oš). I don’t know about Serbo-Croatian terminations, but I know that “oš” (pronounced like “osh” in English) is a very common Hungarian termination, where it is written as “os”. Many Rumanian surnames of Hungarian origin have this termination, written as “oș”, for example Mogoș, Boroș, Cordoș, Doboș, etc.

https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/List%C4%83_de_nume_rom%C3%A2ne%C8%99ti_de_origine_maghiar%C4%83

More importantly, there is even the Rumanian surname Neagoș, created from Neagu and the termination “oș” (Neagoș = Neagu + oș). So, the Rumanian name Neagoș is the counterpart of the Montenegrin name Njegoš.

https://www.locatefamily.com/N/NEA/NEAGOS-1.html

The Hungarian termination “oš” on a Montenegrin toponym of probable Vlach origin shows again the link between Transylvania and the southern Balkans.

It seems that a man named Neagu was probably a Vlach voivode from the Făgăraș region who settled in Montenegro. Maybe he had something to do with the mines from Transylvania and then with the mines from Montenegro. In Transylvania there is a former village named “Cîmpu lu Neag”, that literally means “Neag(u)’s Field”. It is in Hunedoara county, and is now part of the Uricani town, which was always a mining town. In Brașov county the village named Vulcan (part of the old Burzenland [Țara Bîrsei]) was originally a Saxon mining village named Wolkendorf. In Montenegro, the Pljevlja and Brskovo mines (founded by Saxons) are relatively close to the villages of Dobri Nugo and Njegovuda.

https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan,_Bra%C8%99ov
https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%A2mpu_lui_Neag,_Hunedoara
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uricani_Coal_Mine

So, in conclusion, my opinion is that the founders of the Drobnjak tribe were Vlachs from Transylvania who brought with them to the southern Balkans a Saxon or a group of Saxons with the I-FGC22045 haplogroup. Or maybe the I-FGC22045 Saxons went independently from Transylvania to the southern Balkans as miners, then one or more of them joined the Drobnjak tribe already present there.

[abmunteanu]

Slobo [Слобо], the recommended article has some interesting portions, that could explain some things.

====================
{automatic translation}
They [the Saxons] were a very mobile population whose migrations were linked to the emergence of new mines and the demise of old ones.
[...]
From the very beginning, they will be the dominant urban population of medieval Serbia, in addition to merchants from the coast, mostly from Dubrovnik, with whom, due to their common Catholic faith, they will enter into the closest ties from the beginning. Although the first layer of settled Saxons was ethnically, more or less, pure, therefore, German in language and culture, already in the next century, with the expansion of contacts with Catholics from the Primorje, the Saxons will slowly lose their ethnic identity and merge into the general mass of the Slavic-speaking urban Catholic population of Serbia. The final phase of the ethnic fusion of the Saxons will take place during the years of Turkish rule, when many of them, due to the absence of a stronger Catholic church organization in the conquered territories, will convert to Orthodoxy or Islam and over time become completely Serbian.
[...]
In addition to the Saxons, each of these places was inhabited by Catholic merchants from Dubrovnik who were organized into colonies, and information about these places and the Catholic churches in them is also mentioned in several papal letters.

https://www.poreklo.rs/2013/10/13/cocici-sasi-medju-srbima/
==============

We see the fact that the Saxons entered from the beginning in contact with Catholic merchants (Bunjevci Vlachs?) from Dubrovnik, who even lived among them. The Drobnjak Vlachs are mentioned in the archives as transporting goods from Dubrovnik to Serbia and the Vlach Bratigna Dobrognago is mentioned in Dubrovnik in 1285. So it’s no surprise that one or more Saxons joined the caravaneer Vlachs that would later become Drobnjaks.

CosicZ, thanks for the welcome greeting. I know about the absence of I-FGC22045 in northern and western Europe, and I took it into consideration. Concerning the time estimations of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup, they may be true, but we actually don’t know if the man who came to the Balkans had this haplogroup or a more newer one. We use by convention the I-FGC22045 haplogroup, but in reality, this may be incorrect. All in all, this is why I have formulated the “Saxon hypothesis” and not the “Saxon theory”. It is a speculation based on circumstantial historical data and not on scientific (genetic genealogy) data. We don’t have at this time a DNA analysis of the remains of a medieval Saxon miner with the I-FGC22045 haplogroup or a confirmed Saxon descendant that has this haplogroup. If ever the remains of Nikola Rašković Drobnjak are more thoroughly DNA tested, we may find by way of his autosomal matches if he was the descendant of a Saxon, a Varangian, a Norman, etc. Then we will have the answer to the I-FGC22045 enigma.

Until then we can speculate based on the available data. And we would have more interesting genetic data if more of those with the I-FGC22061 haplogroup would take DNA autosomal tests and would compare the results. For example, my father has a lot of autosomal matches that have German ancestors and don’t have Eastern-European or Balkan ancestors. A Saxon ancestor could theoretically be discovered if I could compare these matches with similar autosomal matches from another man with the I-FGC22061 haplogroup. But unfortunately I see that many buy only an Y-DNA test and not an autosomal DNA test. Anyone serious about genetic genealogy should buy an autosomal test at Ancestry and 23andMe and then upload the test result [raw DNA data] to MyHeritage, FTDNA and GEDmatch.

Speaking about a more ancient Germanic population, there is the toponym Nehoiu, of a town (former village) in the county of Buzău, a county that borders the Brașov county. The name Nehoiu is derived from Negoiu, himself derived from Neagu. In the county of Buzău the presence of the Goths was proved by the treasure discovered in the Pietroasele village, a treasure that has Gothic inscriptions on it. We can speculate that this almost mythical man Neagu, with so many toponyms named after him, was probably of Gothic paternal origin and is the one that had the I-FGC22045 haplogroup. But until the remains from the XI-XII century necropolis from Nehoiu are DNA tested we cannot be sure about that.

https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nehoiu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nehoiu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pietroasele_Treasure
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_of_Pietroassa

[abmunteanu]

This is a two-part message.

I’ve read the Wikipedia article in English, Serbian and Croatian about the Bunjevci and it mai seem probable that my father’s ancestor was a Bunjevac Vlach. I suspected a long time ago the he migrated from the southern Balkans via Hungary to Transylvania. The fact that there was a mass migration of Bunjevci from the Adriatic coast to Vojvodina confirms my supposition.

==========
Bunjevci [...] are a South Slavic sub-ethnic group living mostly in the Bačka area of northern Serbia and southern Hungary (Bács-Kiskun County), particularly in Baja and surroundings, in Croatia (e.g. Primorje-Gorski Kotar County, Lika-Senj County, Slavonia, Split-Dalmatia County, Vukovar-Srijem County), and in Bosnia-Herzegovina. They presumably originate from western Herzegovina. As a result of the Ottoman conquest, some of them migrated to Dalmatia, from there to Lika and the Croatian Littoral, and in the 17th century to the Bácska area of Hungary.
[...]
In the 20th century hinterland of Novi Vinodolski, called as Krmpote, the Primorje (Littoral or Coastal) Bunjevci were economically less powerful rural population and hence it had an attribution of "otherness" with negative connotation by urban citizens. Compared to Sveti Juraj they were more powerful and refused to call themselves Bunjevci because of such broad connotation and rather used "Planinari" (Mountaineers), and the citizens name “Seljari” had negative and mockery connotation by Bunjevci.
[...]
The migrations from Northern Dalmatia were influenced by Ottomans conquest in the 15th and 16th century, and the first migration to Primorje is considered to have happened in 1605 when around 50 families from Krmpota near Zemunik settled in Lič near Fužine by Danilo Frankol, captain of Senj, in agreement with Nikola and Juraj Zrinski, and with several waves until 1647 settling in Lič, the hinterland of Senj (Ledenice, Krmpote – Sv. Jakov, Krivi Put, Senjska draga), and some to Pag and Istria. Some also arrived during the Cretan War (1645–1669), and after the Ottomans defeat in Lika (1683–1687), some littoral Bunjevci moved to settlements in Lika, like Pazarište, Smiljan, Gospićko field, Široka Kula, valley of Ričice and Hotuče. According to the common theory based on historical documents happened at least three big migrations to Podunavlje, first from the beginning of the 17th century (without Franciscan friars), second in the mid 17th century during Cretan War, and third during Great Turkish War (1683–1699).
[...]
During the historically confirmed migrations during the middle ages, which were initiated by the Turkish occupation of the region, the Morlacs carried with themselves the newly accepted eastern (Orthodox) Christianity, ijekavian dialect and the transhumanic type of cattle breeding and were mixed, almost to the point of non-recognition, with the older Alpine Vlachs which we know as Bunjevci.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunjevci
==========

My father has autosomal matches with ancestors in Lika-Senj county, including from around Novi Vinodolski, which is presumed to have given the name to the Novljani family of the Drobnjak tribe. My father’s ancestor probably migrated (with other Bunjevci) around the year 1700 to Bačka, which at the time was part of Austria-Hungary. Then he or one of his descendants went to Transylvania, at that time also a part of Austria-Hungary. It is interesting that some Bunjevci called themselves “Mountaineers”, which is exactly the translation of the Rumanian name “Munteanu” (pl. “Munteni”).

The name Bunjevci apparently originates from the river Buna. There are two rivers with this name, one in Herzegovina, a tributary of the Neretva, and one at the border of Montenegro with Albania, close to the town of Ulcinj.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buna_(Neretva)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bojana_(river)

What is also interesting is the fact the root of the name Bunjevci is the word “Bun”. This is a Rumanian word and it means “Good” in English and “Dobro” in Serbo-Croatian. In my opinion the original name of the Drobnjaks was “Dobroneagu”, which is composed from “Dobro”+”Neagu” and means “Neagu the Good” in English, and “Neagu cel Bun” in Rumanian. The epithet “cel Bun” ["the Good"] was used for a medieval Moldavian ruler (Alexandru cel Bun, 1400-1432). It probably was also used for other political figures. If there was a “Neagu” Vlach voivode who migrated from Transylvania to the southern Balkans, he may have received this adjective from his subjects if his leadership was appreciated. Maybe this is how the name “Dobroneagu” (future “Drobnjak”) originated. Even more interesting, in the Croatian Wikipedia article is mentioned a family named “Njegovani” who participated to the third Bunjevci migration.

https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunjevci#Tre%C4%87a_seoba

The Serbian DNA Project admins know better which men tested for Y-DNA are of Bunjevac origin. I know from the thread about the newly tested that there is a man named Milinović from the town of Gospić, Lika-Senj, Croatia who has the I-P109 haplogroup. Apparently his family is of Bunjevac origin. My father has on Ancestry an autosomal match (8 cM) named M. Milinović who on his paternal side is from Zalužnika, Lika-Senj, a village very close to Gospić. See screenshot and tree below.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YxZ6tF6pUFv9AMzMmgib_QbkeEQqDm4j/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AT8CXwTzJc9vtoobIOvddklhXaS7uR8A/view?usp=sharing

[abmunteanu]

I want to mention a thing that may support the Saxon hypothesis of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup. Just like the Bunjevci migration to Vojvodina, the Saxon migration to Transylvania has involved hundreds, if not thousands of men. Many think that the I-FGC22045 haplogroup arrived in the Balkans belonging to a single man, but this may not be true in the case of a mass migration. The biggest problem with migrating people is the stress to settle in a foreign land. This stress is lowered considerably by having relatives and neighbors that are also part of the migration. The foreign land doesn't feel so foreign if there are known people that you can see everyday, just like in the native land. This is why these mass migrations very probably involved many men from the same village or from neighboring villages. Some of these men were probably related on the Y chromosome, more closely or more distantly. It is not unusual if the Saxon migration involved men that had different branches of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup, their common Y-DNA ancestor having lived hundreds of years in the past. Maybe a Saxon miner is the ancestor of the I-FGC22061 haplogroup, and another miner, distantly related to the first, is the ancestor of the Bulgarian-Macedonian-Albanian branch, if this branch exists. Maybe there are more than two branches of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup.

The I-FGC22045 origin is an enigma, but fortunately it can be solved. Not many contemporary haplogroups are in the fortunate position to have related medieval DNA that can be analyzed. I found a YouTube video about the unearthing of the remains of Nikola Rašković Drobnjak. As I already said, these are a gold mine of DNA information, we only need the miners with the right tools to extract the gold.

https://www.youtube.com/v/wCkp28lzoPk

[RajkoK]

Bonjour a tous
deux nouvelle personne du groupe IFGC 22061 sont arrivé sur Yfull , quelqun connait leur nom ? Merci

[abmunteanu]

This is a three part message.

I read a few articles in English about Bunjevci and one of them was written by a Serb reasearcher from Belgrade. At the beginning he presents the existing theories about the origin of the Bunjevci.

=======
‘Bunjevci are people of Norman origin.’ ‘Bunjevci are indigenous pre-Slavic population of
the Roman province Transdanubia, at the time called Dardans.’ ‘Bunjevci are Ilirs. They
are catholici Valachi alias Bunievczi.’ ‘The core of Bunjevci people are old Roman
inhabitants.’ ‘Bunjevci are Morlachs or Vallachs from Dalmatia and Herzegovina, who
were Slavenized and accepted the Catholic faith.’ ‘Bunjevci originated from Bosnia and
were members of the Bosnian Church, so called Bogumils, led to Vojvodina by Franciscan
monks under the condition of accepting Catholicism.’ ‘Bunjevci are Serbs from Bosnia,
converted by force to Catholicism, who then migrated to Vojvodina.’ ‘Bunjevci have
always been Catholics, they are a Croat tribe, dispersed in Herzegovina, Dalmatia and
Vojvodina.’ ‘Bunjevci are the fourth South Slav nation, besides Slovenes, Croats and
Serbs.’

Why Bunjevci did not Become A Nation: A Case Study
Bojan Todosijevic, Belgrade Institute of Social Sciences
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/265447989_Why_Bunjevci_did_not_Become_A_Nation_A_Case_Study
=========

The first theory caught my attention, because I did not read it anywhere else, contrary to the other theories.

So, if Bunjevci are of Norman origin, there must be a link between them and the Normans. And since it is known that the Normans fought the Byzantines in three wars, I wanted to see which places were under Norman control.

========
Robert Guiscard, another Norman adventurer previously elevated to the dignity of count of Apulia as the result of his military successes, ultimately drove the Byzantines out of southern Italy. Having obtained the consent of Pope Gregory VII and acting as his vassal, Robert continued his campaign conquering the Balkan peninsula as a foothold for western feudal lords and the Catholic Church. After allying himself with Croatia and the Catholic cities of Dalmatia, in 1081 he led an army of 30,000 men in 300 ships landing on the southern shores of Albania, capturing Valona, Kanina, Jericho (Orikumi), and reaching Butrint after numerous pillages. They joined the fleet that had previously conquered Corfu and attacked Dyrrachium from land and sea, devastating everything along the way. [...] The city's garrison resisted until February 1082, when Dyrrachium was betrayed to the Normans by the Venetian and Amalfitan merchants who had settled there. The Normans were now free to penetrate into the hinterland; they took Ioannina and some minor cities in southwestern Macedonia and Thessaly before appearing at the gates of Thessalonica. Dissension among the high ranks coerced the Normans to retreat to Italy. They lost Dyrrachium, Valona, and Butrint in 1085, after the death of Robert.

A few years after the First Crusade, in 1107, the Normans under the command of Bohemond, Robert's son, landed in Valona and besieged Dyrrachium using the most sophisticated military equipment of the time, but to no avail. Meanwhile, they occupied Petrela, the citadel of Mili at the banks of the river Deabolis, Gllavenica (Ballsh), Kanina and Jericho. This time, the Albanians sided with the Normans, dissatisfied by the heavy taxes the Byzantines had imposed upon them. With their help, the Normans secured the Arbanon passes and opened their way to Dibra. The lack of supplies, disease and Byzantine resistance forced Bohemond to retreat from his campaign and sign a peace treaty with the Byzantines in the city of Deabolis.

The further decline of Byzantine state-of-affairs paved the road to a third attack in 1185, when a large Norman army invaded Dyrrachium, owing to the betrayal of high Byzantine officials. Some time later, Dyrrachium—one of the most important naval bases of the Adriatic—fell again to Byzantine hands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normans#Byzantium
=======

We can see that the Normans were present in the following towns from Albania:

Dyrrachium = today Durrës
Valona = today Vlorë
Kanina = today Kaninë
Jericho (Orikumi) = today Orikum
Butrint = today Butrint
Petrela = today Petrelë
Gllavenica = today Ballsh
Mili citadel = south of today’s Berat (has a famous citadel, which was under Norman control in 1082-1085)
Dibra = today Dibër

Kaninë, Orikum and Ballsh are very close to Vlorë. Petrelë is close to Tirana. Butrint is in the south of Albania, close to the Greek border. Dibër is in eastern Albania, on the border with Macedonia. It is interesting to point the fact that Narta Lagoon, just north of Vlorë, is used for the production of salt. Maybe the Vlach caravans transported the salt inland, just like they did in Dubrovnik.

[abmunteanu]

Speaking of Dubrovnik (where Bratigna Dobrognago was mentioned in 1285), it seems that Vlorë had strong political and commercial ties with it. Surely there was also an exchange of population between the two cities.

======
In the 11th and 12th century, Vlorë played an instrumental role in the conflicts between the Byzantine Empire and Norman Kingdom of Sicily. Following Norman occupation, they ruled for only four years and established a Latin church episcopal see in Vlorë. In 1321 the city being under Byzantine control was attacked by a Venetian fleet under Giovanni Michiel as a result costing the lives of many of its Greek inhabitants. Vlorë served as capital of the Principality of Valona, initially a Serbian vassal state and later, independent Christian state from 1346 to 1417.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlor%C3%AB

The Principality of Valona and Kanina, also known as the Despotate of Valona and Kanina or simply the Principality of Valona (1346–1417) was a medieval principality in Albania, roughly encompassing the territories of the modern counties of Vlorë (Valona), Fier, and Berat. Initially a vassal of the Serbian Empire, it became an independent lordship after 1355, although de facto under Venetian influence, and remained as such until it was conquered by the Ottoman Turks in 1417.

The strategically important city of Valona, on the coast of modern Albania, had been fought over repeatedly between the Byzantines and various Italian powers in the 13th century. Finally conquered by Byzantium in ca. 1290, it was one of the chief imperial holdings in the Balkans. Byzantine rule lasted until the 1340s, when the Serbian ruler Stefan Dušan, taking advantage of a Byzantine civil war, took Albania. Valona fell in late 1345 or early 1346, and Dušan placed his brother-in-law, John Asen, brother of the Bulgarian Tsar Ivan Alexander, in charge of Valona as his capital, and with Kanina and Berat as his main fortresses. After Dušan's death in 1355, John established himself as an independent lord. He maintained close relations with Venice (whose citizen he became) and with Simeon Uroš, ruler of Epirus in the south. Under his rule, Valona prospered through trade with Venice and the Republic of Ragusa (modern Dubrovnik). John died in 1363 from the plague, and was succeeded by Alexander, possibly his son, who ruled until ca. 1368. He continued his father's policies, maintaining close ties with Ragusa, whose citizenship he acquired.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Valona
======

I looked on the map around the places where the Normans were mentioned in the western Balkans and found some interesting toponyms, not related to the Normans but possibly related to the Bunjevci. 

1) There is a village named Bunavi, just north of Vlorë.
2) There is a village named Velabisht near Berat. The Bunjevci are originary from the mountains named Velebit in Croatia.
3) There is a village named Drobonik near Berat. The name seems similar to Drobnjak.

See the screenshots below:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1urKthlNgtmQxr-e_5DU3Yd2hw-_OKYHP/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1E0C3QNWUgR_82W8xIx6EJPP5pqKDYL2o/view?usp=sharing

Maybe some Bunjevci and Drobnjak Vlachs migrated to Albania when it was under Serbian control.

=====
In 1282 the Serbian king Stefan Uroš II Milutin gained control of the Albanian cities of Lezhë and Debar and, at some time in 1284, the city of Dyrrachion (modern Durrës).

During the reign of Stefan Dushan, 1331–55, taking advantage of the Byzantine civil war of 1341–1347, the area of Elbasan, Krujë, Berat and Vlora (Principality of Valona) were added to the nascent Serbian Empire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania_under_Serbia_in_the_Middle_Ages
=====

[abmunteanu]

Now let’s see the places of origin of the Albanians with the I-FGC22045 haplogroup:

1) Mallakastër, Fier county, Albania, close to Vlorë
2) Kurbin (Mal i Bardhë), Lezhë county, 50 km north of Durrës, Albania
3) Mat, Dibër county, central Albania
4) Dibër municipality, Albania, on the border with Macedonia
5) Pogradec, Albania, on the border with Macedonia
6) Kičevo, North Macedonia

https://rrenjet.com/databaza-publike/
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hG1Mq8A5bmpP8JlsJSYr9GKSpz6HzSLj/view?usp=sharing

We know that the I-FGC22045 Albanian from Pogradec is negative for the I-FGC22061 haplogroup, typical for some of the Drobnjaks and apparently also for some of the Bunjevci. As I already said, I was in contact with an admin from the RRenjet Albanian DNA Project and exchanged some e-mails. I also donated some money to RRenjet, for example I donated 18 USD for the Albanian from Kurbin to be tested if he is positive for the I-FGC22057 haplogroup, which is similar to I-FGC22061. However, the Albanian admin has not contacted me about the test result, so I don’t know if the test was done. My understanding with the RRenjet admin was that I will eventually pay for an Albanian to take the WGS Dante Labs test to see if there is an Albanian branch of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup.

But since the admin did not contact me after the 18 USD test, I presumed that he was probably reprimanded for speaking with me, although I told him from the beginning that I have posted on the Poreklo forum. The money that was available for the Dante Labs test is not available anymore. Some time ago A. Jakšić asked me why I don’t pay 100 USD in order to get the BAM file of my father’s Big Y test, so that I can see his STR matches on YFull. This is what I responded him: “I don't want to give any more money to FTDNA, lately the quality of their test results has gone down. I just paid for a Big Y test and its results have not satisfied me at all (no Big Y matches and no Y-67 matches). Instead of paying 100 USD for my father's BAM file, I can pay 200 EUR to Dante Labs and have a full WGS test for myself.”

So I did it. I ordered the test (200 EUR) on 25.03.2023 and I received the kit for collecting a blood sample two days later. I sent the sample the next day and it was received by Dante Labs on 31.03.2023. It’s almost 3 months from that date and the sample is still listed as “Awaiting Quality Control Inspection”. I contacted Dante Labs two times and they presented excuses for the delay, but apparently there is nothing that could be done to speed things up. I told them that the company risks losing its reputation and many customers, because nobody will recommend a DNA company that does not specify a time duration for the results to appear, let alone the fact that my sample has not even begun processing after 3 months since it was received.

I also told them that people will begin joking about the name of the company in relation to the Divine Comedy written by Dante Alighieri.
“Why is the company named Dante Labs”?
“Because the tests are stuck in purgatory.”

In conclusion, a word of caution for those that want to order a test from Dante Labs. Prepare to wait many months before the test results are ready.