Аутор Тема: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece  (Прочитано 17594 пута)

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #40 послато: Јул 12, 2018, 05:22:34 поподне »
Grecište or Grečište could indeed indicate place of the Greeks, but the construction seems off. In Serbo-Croatian and Macedonian, the construction would be Grcište, or even Grčište. The Bulgarian variation for Grčište is Гърчище, or roughly Garčište. The variation seen in Greece must come from some dialectal construction denoting the Greeks as Greci, not Grci or Garci as seen in the standardized South Slavic languages. It's certainly not unknown that Greece has been called Grecija by the Slavs, so the term Greci shouldn't be totally foreign to us.

An interesting result showed up when searching "гречиште" (grečište), which side by side translations of phrases in Macedonian, Albanian and Turkish. The term гречиште corresponds to Albanian "greqishte", which is a reflex of the word "greqisht" signifying the adjective "Greek", in this case specifically Greek language. (source)

There is another toponym, in Russia and Ukraine, гречище (grečišče), but I'm not sure the meaning of the toponym.

In fact, the name for Greece in Bulgarian is Гърция (Gŭrtsiya) and in Slavic Macedonian it's Грција (Grtsiya). Since Slavic Epirote dialect must have been closely related to Slavic Macedonian, it's no wonder that there is a form Gretsista (with ц-ts and not ч-ch), and this extra "e" vowel was probably interpolated by Greek speakers, as Alexandra noted. There is also the possibility that it is only an official name (with ts, since most Greeks cannot pronounce ch, and s, since they can't pronounce sh), and that local inhabitants pronounce the name as Грчиште/Грчишта, or some variant of it, but I'm more inclined that it is indeed pronounced as Грци(ш)ста.

The etymology of koukouli is Latin so it could be that we both borrowed it from the Latin language. The construction of the toponym with the ending -itsa is typical of Slavic toponyms I would think. The same toponym exists in Bosnia and Herzegovina etc. as you say. That is also why the village has been renamed to Koukoulia (plural of koukouli) which sounds and is more Greek.

This example once more shows that the Greeks are the most potent assimilators in the Balkans, and I truly envy you for that.  ;) P.S. I'm not ironic.  :)
Чињеницама против самоувереног незнања.

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #41 послато: Јул 12, 2018, 06:42:18 поподне »
Hey guys!

To be honest I don't know how my grandparents would have pronounced Gretsista...however if I try to imagine them doing so, based on my memory of their pronounciation, I would imagine something like Gr(e)tsista with a faint "e" but most probably with an "s" and "ts".
In other cases, like Sioutista, I can vividly hear them say Shutsta in my mind. Also many "š, ž and č" sounds when talking in general (and disappearing vowels), as I wrote once before.
As far as our force as assimilators is concerned, I am not always happy or proud about it...Like, in the case of the renamed toponyms, foreign-sounding surnames changed to others that sound "Greek" and the vanishing of the local dialects, I personally feel very sorry that a big part of our history and heritage is casted away like that. :-(

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #42 послато: Јул 12, 2018, 07:28:07 поподне »
Hello again,

In relation to my question about the Vajunite and/or other historical Slavic presence in our area I would like to post my admixture results by Lukasz's (Macuga) in order to ask you if they can indicate the above. I consider them to be the most detailed and accurate of my results, as far as I can understand. I have posted the map and diagrams from LM genetics in this other thread I started. Just a reminder in order to better understand the results, that my maternal family has known Vlach and Arvanite roots and I suspect that my dad's family (from Kefalonia and Kea) although islanders also have some more limited Arvanite and maybe even Slavic admixture (according to some of his ethnicity estimates and based on his DNA relatives).
Since I do not know very well how to "read" and interpret such results (incl. the oracles), I would like to request you to give me your opinion. As you will see, except for my Greek/Mediterranean ancestry there must be a dominant Arvanite element in me (or at least, that is how I understand it). Lukasz told me that South etc. Romanian is connected to Vlach ancestry in general, if I remember right, since he only has one Greek Vlach sample. You will be able to see also some Serbian, North Macedonian, Bosniak, Moldavian etc. percentages in the oracles. I wonder if these could indeed be an expression of our Vajunite history and/or even of the Bulgarian and then Serbian occupation of the village. (Although someone has told me that the Serbs didn't really settle in these areas as the Bulgarians did). Or maybe, one should not take this information literally?
Besides, there could be some unknown Jewish admixture in the family judging from these reports (or maybe it is as Lukasz writes, another expression of Greek Islander/Sicilian ancestry).
The thing is I don't really know how to interpret oracles etc. and I would love to gain some more insight.


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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #43 послато: Јул 12, 2018, 07:28:55 поподне »
I. Population admixture section

Bear in mind that closely related populations will often turn up instead of the actual populations that make up your background (i.e Sw-England or FR_Britanny).
Jewish admixture can at times be masked or mistaken for Sicilian or Greek Islander ancestry, or vice-versa.

nMonte3 oracle (all references)

nMonte3 provides you with frequencies related to your recent ancestry, and works best for individiuals of a non-mixed background. It is also very adept at detecting subtle regional differences.

"1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"

GR_Thessaly   GR_Eubea GR_Thesalloniki Albanians_FYROM   GR_Peloponese   South_Albania   North_Albania   GR_Macedonia

10.30555   10.40562   10.74388   10.95302   11.32797   11.77166   12.12910   12.25149

"2. FULL TABLE nMONTE" (estimated percentages)

"distance%=9.5609"

GR_Eubea,34.4
Albanians_FYROM,26.2
GR_Thessaly,20.8
Sicily_Ragusa,7.6
GR_Thesalloniki,3.6
Belarus_Ashkenazy,2
South_Romania,1
Syrian_Jew,1
Palestina,0.4
Poland_Ashkenazy,0.4
AustroHungarian_Ashkenazy1,0.2
Carpathian_Rusyns,0.2
GR_Central_Anatolia,0.2
Lebanon_Muslim,0.2
Macedonia_FYROM,0.2
Moldavia,0.2
PL_Masovia,0.2
Pl_South_(Małopolska),0.2
Samaritan,0.2
Thüringen,0.2
Tunisian_Jew,0.2
Ukraine_Zhytomyr,0.2
 


4.07.2018

author: Lukasz Macuga - www.lm-genetics.ovh

targeted nMonte (without Italian, Jewish and West-Asian references)

"distance%=9.7589"

GR_Eubea,43.4
GR_Thessaly,23.4
Albanians_FYROM,21.2
GR_Thesalloniki,6.4
GR_Kythira,1.8
Cyprus,0.8
GR_Ikaria,0.8
GR_Crete,0.6
Ukraine_Chernigov,0.6
Bataheen_ArabSudan,0.2
Carpathian_Rusyns,0.2
Messiria_ArabSudan,0.2
Nubian_Halfawieen,0.2

Pl_South_(Małopolska),0.2

targeted nMonte (without GR_Eubea)

"distance%=10.0284"

GR_Thessaly,45.6
Albanians_FYROM,29
GR_Thesalloniki,13
GR_Kythira,5
GR_Cyclades,2.8
Cyprus,1.6
GR_Crete,0.8
Bataheen_ArabSudan,0.4
Moldavia,0.4
GR_Ikaria,0.2
GR_Kalymnos,0.2
Nuer,0.2
RU_Orel,0.2
Saxony,0.2
Thüringen,0.2
Ukraine_Chernivtsi,0.2


Ван мреже Alexandra_K

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #44 послато: Јул 12, 2018, 07:29:07 поподне »
Admix4 oracle (two methods, one of them is more speculative) -   all references

The oracle works in a similar way to the Gedmatch Oracles, though the estimates here are far more robust. One shouldn‘t take all of them literaly, but rather as extreme examples of possible distant admixtures. Admix4 is a different tool which is similar to the Gedmatch oracles. it compares your frequencies to the list of most similar averages ( The same process as nMonte single item distances) or models you as a combination (two-way, three-way, or four- way) of different populations. In some cases it will be in line with the actual ethnic combination you inherited from your parents and grandparents ancestries. It may be the case that different populations show up in each oracle, especially for people of a mixed background.

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 GR_Thessaly @ 10,30949
2 GR_Eubea @ 10,408763
3 GR_Thesalloniki @ 10,748317
4 Albanians_FYROM @ 10,95492
5 GR_Peloponese @ 11,332131
6   South_Albania @ 11,773309
7 North_Albania @ 12,131989
8 GR_Macedonia @ 12,256992
9 GR_Central @ 12,663681
10 Kosovo @ 13,082208
500 iterations.

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 GR_Thessaly+GR_Eubea @ 9,891697
2 Sicily_Ragusa+Macedonia_FYROM @ 9,923604
3 GR_Eubea+Albanians_FYROM @ 9,966994
4 GR_Thesalloniki+GR_Eubea @ 9,994439
5 Sicily_Ragusa+Albanians_FYROM @ 10,096013
6   Albanians_FYROM+Belarus_Ashkenazy @ 10,193675
7 Sicily_Ragusa+Montenegro @ 10,209045
8 Sicily_Ragusa+South_Romania @ 10,272857
9 GR_Thesalloniki+GR_Thessaly @ 10,295883
10 GR_Thessaly+GR_Thessaly @ 10,30949
125250 iterations.

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Sicily_Ragusa +25% Serbia +25% Albanians_FYROM @ 9,589384
2 50% Albanians_FYROM +25% Macedonia_FYROM +25% Syrian_Jew @ 9,599098
3   50% Sicily_Ragusa +25% South-West_Romania +25% Albanians_FYROM @ 9,600608
4 50% Sicily_Ragusa +25% Moldavia +25% Albanians_FYROM @ 9,614162
5 50% Albanians_FYROM +25% GR_Eubea +25% Belarus_Ashkenazy @ 9,634471 6 50% Albanians_FYROM +25% Montenegro +25% Syrian_Jew @ 9,646428
7 50% Albanians_FYROM +25% Serbia +25% Syrian_Jew @ 9,65853
8 50% Albanians_FYROM +25% Sicily_Ragusa +25% GR_Eubea @ 9,679012 9 50% Sicily_Ragusa +25% Bosniaks +25% Albanians_FYROM @ 9,683546
10 50% Sicily_Ragusa +25% Western_Serbians +25% Albanians_FYROM @ 9,692027 54451531 iterations.
 


4.07.2018

author: Lukasz Macuga - www.lm-genetics.ovh


Using 4 populations approximation:
1   Sicily_Ragusa+GR_Eubea+Macedonia_FYROM+Albanians_FYROM @ 9,561525
2 Sicily_Ragusa+GR_Eubea+South_Romania+Albanians_FYROM @ 9,567721 3 Sicily_Ragusa+Sicily_Ragusa+Serbia+Albanians_FYROM @ 9,589384
4 Macedonia_FYROM+Albanians_FYROM+Albanians_FYROM+Syrian_Jew @ 9,599098 5 Sicily_Ragusa+Sicily_Ragusa+South-West_Romania+Albanians_FYROM @ 9,600608 6 Sicily_Ragusa+Sicily_Ragusa+Moldavia+Albanians_FYROM @ 9,614162
7 GR_Eubea+Albanians_FYROM+Albanians_FYROM+Belarus_Ashkenazy @ 9,634471 8 Montenegro+Albanians_FYROM+Albanians_FYROM+Syrian_Jew @ 9,646428
9 Serbia+Albanians_FYROM+Albanians_FYROM+Syrian_Jew @ 9,65853
10 Sicily_Ragusa+GR_Thessaly+GR_Eubea+Albanians_FYROM @ 9,661293
11 Sicily_Ragusa+GR_Eubea+South-West_Romania+Albanians_FYROM @ 9,672054 12 Sicily_Ragusa+GR_Eubea+Albanians_FYROM+Albanians_FYROM @ 9,679012 13 Sicily_Ragusa+GR_Thessaly+GR_Eubea+Macedonia_FYROM @ 9,679203
14 Sicily_Ragusa+Sicily_Ragusa+Bosniaks+Albanians_FYROM @ 9,683546
15 Sicily_Ragusa+Sicily_Ragusa+Western_Serbians+Albanians_FYROM @ 9,692027
16 Sicily_Ragusa+Sicily_Ragusa+Macedonia_FYROM+Albanians_FYROM @ 9,692146 17 GR_Eubea+Serbia+Albanians_FYROM+Syrian_Jew @ 9,699668
18 Sicily_Ragusa+GR_Thesalloniki+GR_Eubea+Albanians_FYROM @ 9,703887 19 Sicily_Ragusa+Sicily_Ragusa+Montenegro+Albanians_FYROM @ 9,706108 20 GR_Eubea+Montenegro+Albanians_FYROM+Syrian_Jew @ 9,708369 1486666276 iterations.

Gaussian method.
Noise dispersion set to 0,130062

Using 1 population approximation:
1   South_Albania @ 4,504369
2 GR_Eubea @ 4,624628
3 Albanians_FYROM @ 4,650313
4 GR_Thesalloniki @ 4,68942
5 GR_Peloponese @ 4,892581
6 North_Albania @ 4,943828
7 GR_Macedonia @ 4,949938
8 GR_Central @ 5,018836
9 GR_Thessaly @ 5,23815
10 IT_Abruzzo @ 5,410556
500 iterations.

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 GR_Ikaria+Albanians_FYROM @ 4,210856
2 GR_Eubea+South_Albania @ 4,252424
3   IT_Abruzzo+Albanians_FYROM @ 4,299556
4 GR_Chios+Albanians_FYROM @ 4,326917
5 GR_Ipeiros+GR_Eubea @ 4,353834
6 GR_Eubea+North_Albania @ 4,372692
7 GR_Eubea+Albanians_FYROM @ 4,379363
8 GR_Thesalloniki+GR_Eubea @ 4,381437
9 GR_Ikaria+North_Albania @ 4,387392
10 IT_Campania+Albanians_FYROM @ 4,417066
125250 iterations.

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Albanians_FYROM +25% GR_Ipeiros +25% GR_Ikaria @ 4,115378
2 50% Albanians_FYROM +25% GR_Eubea +25% GR_Ikaria @ 4,12872
3 50% Albanians_FYROM +25% GR_Ikaria +25% Albanians_FYROM @ 4,153111
4   50% Albanians_FYROM +25% GR_Ikaria +25% South_Albania @ 4,165457
5 50% Albanians_FYROM +25% GR_Ikaria +25% North_Albania @ 4,191655 6 50% South_Albania +25% GR_Eubea +25% GR_Ikaria @ 4,208069
7 50% GR_Ikaria +25% Albanians_FYROM +25% Albanians_FYROM @ 4,210856 8 50% GR_Eubea +25% GR_Ikaria +25% Albanians_FYROM @ 4,212722
9 50% Albanians_FYROM +25% IT_Abruzzo +25% GR_Ikaria @ 4,215582
10 50% South_Albania +25% GR_Ikaria +25% Albanians_FYROM @ 4,218749 58979509 iterations.
[/i]

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #45 послато: Јул 13, 2018, 08:33:13 пре подне »
Hello guys,

I am coming back to the topic of Koukoulitsa, since I found out some new info. I am copying here my related answer from another forum:

"Now, regarding the interrelated words koukoula (hood), koukouli (cocoon) and koukla (doll) (also the verb "koukoulono"=to cover/cover up). Greek speakers can read a very interesting article by Sarantakos about the connection among the three words here https://sarantakos.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/koukoulai/.
Their etymology is the Latin cuculla meaning hood of monks/clergy as in the Bulgarian example above. This was its first use in Greek too. Then its meaning expanded also to cocoon (koukouli) and doll (koukla). The cocoon covers or wraps up the larvae whereas the first dolls were made of wrapped up pieces of cloth (the face was painted on the cloth's surface wrapped around the bulk of cloth which formed the head of the doll). My grandmother from Epirus used to make numerous dolls like that for me when I was a child.
The Latin word cuculla (which must have been borrowed also in the Albanian language as well as in Slavic languages to signify any of the above meanings) was originally probably borrowed from the "Galatian" (Gaul) language according to Sarantakos.
Now, toponyms all over the Balkans (maybe mostly of Slavic origin) containing some form of Koukouli/Koukoula etc. must be related either to silk worms indeed or (since it was mentioned that it is often toponyms given to places on hill or mountain tops) they must be referring to the village or place as a "hood" (according to my interpretation) that kind of covers the top (head) of the mountain."

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #46 послато: Јул 13, 2018, 09:34:56 пре подне »
I thought now you might be interested also in the previous part of the same conversation on eupedia about the other words we talked about together. I presented your very helpful answers too (thank you!). I paste it below:

"- Quote Originally Posted by Alexandra_K View Post
Hello, Laberia!
Yes, sure. I don't know if I made any typos (I make quite a lot of them, sorry, it is half the fault of my disturbing automatic correction). But the actual names are Kosovista, Gretsista and Koukoulitsa. So the first two are -ista and the third -itsa.
Thank you. Probably the prediction on of the phone if you are typing from a cell phone.
The ending -ista(isht-a in Alb) is Albanian, meanwhile -itsa(ic-a in Alb) is slavic.
Probably Kosovista is a slavic toponym with an Albanian suffix. Meanwhile Gretsista in my opinion is Albanian. And here i want to quote you from one of your previous posts whe you have noticed this:
An interesting result showed up when searching "гречиште" (grečište), which side by side translations of phrases in Macedonian, Albanian and Turkish. The term гречиште corresponds to Albanian "greqishte", which is a reflex of the word "greqisht" signifying the adjective "Greek", in this case specifically Greek language. (source)
You are very correct. In albanian we use to say greqisht for the greek language. But in some part of Albania there are some subdialects where they use to say ç and not q and viceversa but not in this case, i.e. greqisht. For example the English word red in Albanian is kuqe but some people use to say kuçe and probably this the explanation of one of the most used Albanian surnames and toponims, Kuqi, Kuçi, that can be found among Albanians, Arvanites and Arberesh( they use to say Cuccia).
q = [c] voiceless palatal stop Albanian
ç = It represents the voiceless postalveolar affricate /t͡ʃ/ in the following languages: the 4th letter of the Albanian alphabet.

Albanian alphabet
The letter Q
The letter Ç
Meanwhile the word kukulla in Albanian is doll.
This is my opinion but i am not a linguist and the ethymology of the names and toponymus it`s not a game but a serious thing. For example our best linguist Eqerem Çabej first of all was an expert in etymology.
I hope i have been helpful, but knowing my flaws in English, i have some doubts. lol

- Concerning Koukoulitsa


кѹкѹл҄ь
кѹкѹл҄ь - м
Черна гугла, качулка, която се носи от монах с висок чин (black hood,worn by a high-ranking monk)
Gr. κουκούλλιον От лат cuculla кокѹль Нвб(NewBulg.) кукул диал(dialect) Кукуля МИ Кукулът МИКукалйето МИ Кукала МИ Кукулят МИ (toponyms)


...comp.to bulg.dial. "гугла". Nowadays it would have sounded like "Guglitsa"...


- Hello Laberia,

Thank you! Well I just wrote you an answer that got lost in cyberspace, I will try writing this again...:-(
So it seems that these toponyms could be a combination of Slavic and Arvanite words. This sounds logic. The Arvanite presence is very considerable in the broader area of Epirus. The comment about the word "greqisht" was not mine but a Serbian guy's who knows a lot on such matters. I will give him your feedback! Judging from all this info, I too tend to think that the toponym Gretsista could be of Arvanite origin.
Are you sure though that the ending -ista is only Albanian and not also Slavic in some cases as td120 says in his previous comment? The village where we come from in Epirus was called Tserkovista and this was a Slavic toponym (the village was a Vajunite settlement in the beginning and later it was conquered by Bulgarians and then Serbs). I have even read somewhere that the Slavic ending -ica is sometimes changed to -ista in Greek. I don't know what is more correct though and you are 100% right in saying that analyzing toponyms is a serious task entailing deep etymological and linguistic knowledge.
Concerning the words, koukoula, koukouli and koukla which are all interrelated (and to which also the Albanian word "kukulla" is connected, I will write again in my next post answering to td120 and Yetos.
The Albanian word "kuqi" is contained in Greek Arvanite toponyms and surnames, eg. Kriekouki/Kriekoukis (the first one being the toponym and the second one the surname)."
« Последња измена: Јул 13, 2018, 09:38:11 пре подне Alexandra_K »

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #47 послато: Јул 13, 2018, 09:36:38 пре подне »
Hello guys,

I am coming back to the topic of Koukoulitsa, since I found out some new info. I am copying here my related answer from another forum:

"Now, regarding the interrelated words koukoula (hood), koukouli (cocoon) and koukla (doll) (also the verb "koukoulono"=to cover/cover up). Greek speakers can read a very interesting article by Sarantakos about the connection among the three words here https://sarantakos.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/koukoulai/.
Their etymology is the Latin cuculla meaning hood of monks/clergy as in the Bulgarian example above. This was its first use in Greek too. Then its meaning expanded also to cocoon (koukouli) and doll (koukla). The cocoon covers or wraps up the larvae whereas the first dolls were made of wrapped up pieces of cloth (the face was painted on the cloth's surface wrapped around the bulk of cloth which formed the head of the doll). My grandmother from Epirus used to make numerous dolls like that for me when I was a child.
The Latin word cuculla (which must have been borrowed also in the Albanian language as well as in Slavic languages to signify any of the above meanings) was originally probably borrowed from the "Galatian" (Gaul) language according to Sarantakos.
Now, toponyms all over the Balkans (maybe mostly of Slavic origin) containing some form of Koukouli/Koukoula etc. must be related either to silk worms indeed or (since it was mentioned that it is often toponyms given to places on hill or mountain tops) they must be referring to the village or place as a "hood" (according to my interpretation) that kind of covers the top (head) of the mountain."

Yes, кукуљица also means "hood" in Serbian language, but it's mostly used in western Serbian regions (Bosnia and Herzegovina, Krajina). Good insight for hilltops and mountain peaks.  ;) It's probably correct.
Чињеницама против самоувереног незнања.

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« Одговор #48 послато: Јул 13, 2018, 09:52:51 пре подне »
Thank you, Nikola, I am glad that you think that it is a good insight  :)

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« Одговор #49 послато: Јул 13, 2018, 10:30:05 пре подне »
I checked it and the village named Koukoulitsa in the past (now Koukoulia) and anothe one in Zagori (north of Ioannina) named Koukouli are at 700 and 1248 meters respectively. They keep mentioning cocoon and silk worms or even  large rocks (?) as etynmologies,  always from the Latin cuculla, but I think that they haven't gotten into account the info that you gave me which is very useful. There is another one near our village named Kouklioi (it is mentioned that it comes again from koukouli). This one is at 400 m. I couldn't understand if it is at the top of a hill in this case. They again give the explanation of silk worms mentioning as proof the existence of many mouries (berry trees?) In the village.
I don't know about this last one but I tend to think that the basis is the Latin cuculla which the Slavs borrowed as well creating toponyms such as Koukoulitsa etc. and that we still have variations of these toponyms linked to tops/peaks in Greece which were originally Slavic. Then when renaming the villages probably the Greeks have not been aware of this significance and they have been renaming on the basis of koukouli= cocoon in every case. This is just my hypothesis of course, could be wrong!

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #50 послато: Јул 13, 2018, 11:53:04 пре подне »
Actually, the endings -iste/ista in Greek toponyms are from Slavic -иште/ишта (-ishte/ishta), and Slavic toponyms in Albania also have this ending, ergo, it does not come from Albanian language. That suffix is not limited only to the Balkans, it's widespread in placenames in Eastern and Central Europe also, wherever there was a Slavic settlement. Examples - црквиште, селиште, буњиште (tsrkvishte, selishte, bunyishte - "former church place", "former village", "place of garbage disposal"), etc. There is an Albanian suffix which is similar to -иште, and that's -isht, it's used when you want to form an adjective (for example, greqisht-Greek, serbisht-Serbian); maybe it's a loan from Slavic, I'm not sure, but in any case it's not the same as -ishtë/ishta, because, as you can see, it always ends in a vowel (ë or a), and this is not the case with adjectival suffix (-isht); also, the big difference is that placenames ending in -ishtë/ishta are albanized versions of Slavic toponyms and they indicate place or a former place (for example, an old village which is now abandoned - селиште/selishte).
Чињеницама против самоувереног незнања.

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #51 послато: Јул 13, 2018, 03:14:46 поподне »
Hello Nikola,
Thank you, yes I had this impression without knowing for sure.

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #52 послато: Јул 13, 2018, 04:43:23 поподне »
Another interesting answer from eupedia forum:

"There is kind of bird galerida called "kukulj" in Serbian dictionary as far I can find and in Russian "hohol" or something,word reffering to the crested feathers on top of its head,your interpretation seem correct.Russian naming of Kossaks because of their shaved head and hair on top "khokhol" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khokhol There is villages in Macedonia named after "kukla" doll,but reffering to stone pillars perhaps,but they are called Kuklitsa not Kukulitsa https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_town_of_Kuklica.Then i looked into Macedonian dictionary "kukul" mean hood or cap,high place or top,braid on hair etc.. http://makedonski.info/search/%D0%BA...D1%83%D0%"

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #53 послато: Јул 13, 2018, 04:46:06 поподне »
My answer:
Thank you, Milan.M!
There is this place, called Kouklioi (pronounced almost like kuklji) near my village. They also give the etymology of coccoon of silk worms for it but it does make me think of the ones you mention in Macedonia (Kukla etc.) because the second "ou" is missing and it sounds more like the word koukla.
I also read a similar possible explanation referring to large rocks in the area about yet another village, which is in Zagori (to the north of Ioannina), called Koukouli (singular). I don't quite get the connection of the word to stones or rocks, do you? Anyways interesting that the two cases are again similar in some way.
Also I checked and saw that both villages, Koukoulia and Koukouli, are at 700m. and 1248 m. respectively. Probably both on or around some kind of top or peak. The one called Kouklioi, is at a lower altitude (480 m. if I remember well). Could not verify if this too is at the top of a hill. Could be. However, the explanation given is again the cocoons of silk worms and they mention as proof the existence of many such trees in the village (mouries). Maybe in some cases they refer to tops/peaks, in others to cocoons, and in others to large rocks? I don't really grasp the linguistic/logical link to the large rocks but would like to understand it better.
Also, only the fact that in Macedonian among the various meanings of the word you found "high place or top", is indicative that my hypothesis could be at least for some of the cases, true.
Thank you again!

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #54 послато: Јул 15, 2018, 03:40:04 поподне »
 I came across the following today:

https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Cerkovica

The two villages aren't that far away from each other...it makes me think that the name of our village might also be connected to the Bulgarians rather than its Vajunite settlers (as the book I have read mostly suggests)? I don't know...
« Последња измена: Јул 15, 2018, 03:45:42 поподне Alexandra_K »

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #55 послато: Јул 15, 2018, 03:44:52 поподне »
Another funny question:

My grandmother used the word "tsagoula" pronounced "ćagula" to refer to "chin/ prominent chin". I can't find any info on the word and its etymology (must be very local). Does anybody have an idea? Thank you!

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #56 послато: Јул 15, 2018, 06:59:56 поподне »
Another funny question:

My grandmother used the word "tsagoula" pronounced "ćagula" to refer to "chin/ prominent chin". I can't find any info on the word and its etymology (must be very local). Does anybody have an idea? Thank you!

The only word that sounds similar to me is a localism from Dalmatian dialect, "ćakula", with meaning "smalltalk, chat". I'm not sure can it be connected somehow.
Kамене рабъ и госодинъ

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #57 послато: Јул 15, 2018, 07:38:55 поподне »
Thank you, Oljer! Interesting...I don't know if they can be connected but you never know...

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #58 послато: Јул 15, 2018, 08:00:40 поподне »
Oljer, I think you must be right about the connection between the two words! I found now that tsagoula/tsagouli is another local version of the word tsaouli used more often in Greek dialects (I only new my grandmother's version). All these words have an Albanian root it seems, and their meaning is lower jaw/chin but also somebody who talks a lot (possibly linked to your word ćakula) or somebody who talks loudly, shouts.
« Последња измена: Јул 15, 2018, 08:02:35 поподне Alexandra_K »

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Одг: Investigating the historical Slavic presence in our area in Ioannina, Greece
« Одговор #59 послато: Јул 15, 2018, 08:28:35 поподне »
I am sorry I noticed that I spelled your name wrong twice...it's Ojler! Sorry... :-[ :)