Дробњаци - Новљани I1>P109>FGC22045>FGC22061

[НиколаВук]

I understood that some Montenegrins received Turkish names as nicknames. But these nicknames were given to the children by their parents, or were they given to adults? This I have not understood from the automatically translated text. Anyway, there is no mention of the custom to take the name of a killed Turk as a nickname by the one who killed him.

Прочитао сам тај пасус код Чајкановића (српски етнолог који се највише бавио народним обичајима и покушајем реконструкције старе паганске религије Срба), деци су поред њихових стварних имена били давани надимци које су потом њихови земљаци много чешће употребљавали у међусобном разговору у односу на право име. Ту је у питању неки сујеверни, апотропејски страх од правог имена неке особе, а давање турских имена је изгледа имало заштитничку улогу, како би децу заштитило од злих духова који доносе болести и несреће (треба имати у виду да је у ранија времена смртност деце била прилично висока). Слично размишљање као кад се детету давало име Вук или нека варијанта тог имена (Вучина, Вукосав, Вукомир, Вукан, итд.), како би се због "страшног" имена од детета одагнали зли дуси (таква имена су најчешће давана када би неколико деце заредом поумирало у породици). Нисам ту наишао на оно што сам помињао о преузимању имена убијеног муслиманског јунака, могуће је да је ту Мемедовић мало дао машти на вољу, али опет ни то не могу да тврдим јер се за ту појаву нисам толико занимао.

Dragan Obrenović [Драган Обреновић], I understand how the haplogroup tree works. For any particular haplogroup discovered by a Big Y test or similar, if you go up in the tree you get close to the origin of that particular haplogroup. This is why we say that the I-FGC22061 haplogroup is of Scandinavian origin. There are men in the Y-DNA haplogroup tree that have related, but much older haplogroups than I-FGC22061. These men are Scandinavians. I-FGC22045 is at the present time the parent branch of I-FGC22061. The only ones that have the I-FGC22045 haplogroup at this time are Albanians from Albania or North Macedonia. We may presume that I-FGC22045 is a haplogroup that has probably appeared in the region encompassed by the two countries. We don’t know what ethnicity the first man with this haplogroup had. I thought that the presumed Vlach Nikola Raskovic Drobnjak was the link between these I-FGC22045 Albanians and those with the I-FGC22061 haplogroup. But it turns out that Nikola Raskovic Drobnjak had the I-FGC22061 haplogroup, although in the article about him from the Poreklo site it was written that he had the I-FGC22045 haplogroup.

It is possible that the Albanians will form a new branch, but this new branch will be a sister branch of I-FGC22061, the two branches having a common ancestor. So, those with the I-FGC22045 haplogroup may not be the “fathers" of those with the I-FGC22061 haplogroup, but the “brothers”. It doesn't change much to the situation. Those who have the I-FGC22061 haplogroup are “stuck” with their Balkan brothers who have the I-FGC22045 haplogroup. You cannot chose your relatives.

Никола Рашковић је био припадник већ формираног племена Дробњака, које је ту било присутно најмање од 13. века (први помени Дробњака у историјским изворима), а могуће и раније. Другим речима, он се не може сматрати некаквим родоначелником рода Дробњака-Новљана. У време када је рађена ДНК анализа његових остатака, FGC22061 није била издвојена као засебна грана на Yfull стаблу (није се још увек појавио Gjoka), те се тада није ни знало да је она уже повезана са Дробњацима, тадашњи најнижи снип је био управо FGC22045, зато је под тим снипом и наведен у књизи. Такође, њему није рађена SNP анализа већ анализа 23 STR маркера, као што сам већ и поменуо у једној од ранијих објава. По вредностима STR маркера се он сасвим лепо уклапа у генетички профилисан род Дробњака-Новљана.

[НиколаВук]

Ја залего нисам, мене сте бановало што сам вам предочаво резултате тестова,ако лажем ја не лаже Астрид, па ме мало боли јер сам злопамптило. Значи ради се о дуплим стандардима, што ће рећи удри Србина како год и колко можеш а госта пусти да будали јер смо добри домаћини...и питање на крају је ли Дукађин или није? Има ли ко од Дробњака од племена јака или смо пошли по финансијама?

Колико се сећам, банован си управо због сличних заједљивих коментара чиме си прекршио Правилник, па те позивам да се суздржиш од таквог начина комуникације и својеврсних "позива на форумски линч".

[Exiled]

Колико се сећам, банован си управо због сличних заједљивих коментара чиме си прекршио Правилник, па те позивам да се суздржиш од таквог начина комуникације и својеврсних "позива на форумски линч".

Правилник су прекршавали уредници вређајућу саговорнике типа лажеш,подмећеш и томе слично, а кад сам вам предочио резултате Каљевића,Нинковића, па кад сам вам почео тумачити развој моје гране сте се мало повукли. Завршавам, али не рече ми је ли Дукађин или није што се тиче Новљана?

[НиколаВук]

Правилник су прекршавали уредници вређајућу саговорнике типа лажеш,подмећеш и томе слично, а кад сам вам предочио резултате Каљевића,Нинковића, па кад сам вам почео тумачити развој моје гране сте се мало повукли. Завршавам, али не рече ми је ли Дукађин или није што се тиче Новљана?

Управо си прекршио чланове 3. и 11. Правилника форума. Зарадио си опомену. Апелујем да комуникацију упристојиш и доведеш у склад са Правилником.

[barbarylion]

Човек није прекршио Правилник и није трол, већ само покушава да дође до нових сазнања, правећи при томе и неке грешке, али сви смо ми људи и сви грешимо. Не знам зашто сте толико залегли да се банује? Ако би почео са троловањем, одмах би добио санкцију, као што је урађено на другој теми са оним Шопчетом, јер се тролови разоткрију, пре или касније. Питање је да ли ви уопште читате шта човек пише, Румун је и није упознат у великој мери са историјом Балкана. Треба му пружити сазнања која тражи, а не да се аутоматски банује. Поруке му изгледају спамерски јер пише и на француском, како би RajkoK могао да разуме оно што он пише.

Mene ne zanima potencijalni ban, ali kad vidim da se svi mogući rodovi dovode u vezu sa albancima uhvati me muka, imam osećaj da su svi njihovi ,,izvori" ma kako mitomanski bili moraju da se uzimaju za ozbiljno i treba da se dokazuje suprotno.
Jednostavno izviru sa svih strana sa raznim glupostima, ima li onda iko ko nije Albanac, a njihov srednji vek i mnoge stvari su u najmanju ruku siromašne. Jednostavno se jezim na njihove argumente, isto kao kada i piramiđani počnu o svojoj historiji koja je komplet preoblikovana i izmisljena.

[Никац]

Nikatz [Никац], you say: <<because today there are Drobnjaci with a surname which looks Albanian to you, it proves that Drobnjaci are of Albanian origin>>

I don’t say that, I say this: there is a possibility of an Albanian ancestor of the Drobnjaci. This must be taken into account, because at this time there are only Albanians who have the parent haplogroup of I-FGC22061, that is I-FGC22045. I also have presented distant autosomal matches of my father that are named Abazi, Gjoka and Berisha, which are all Albanian names. The Albanian Gjoka with the I-FGC22045 haplogroup from YFull is an Y-12 match with my father on FTDNA. This is not irrefutable proof that the ancestor of the Drobnjaci was Albanian, but again, we must not rule out this possibility. Unfortunately I see on this forum a mental block when it comes to Albanians. I understand the political situation, but if you want to discover your true ancestor, you must take into account all the possibilities, including the ones that are politically hurtful. As I already said, we are talking about old history, the possible Albanian ancestor lived 500 or more years ago, he cannot be compared with the Albanians of today. And again, the ancestor could have been part of any ethnic group that lived at that time on the territory of old Herzegovina. I make the case for Albanians because they have the I-FGC22045 haplogroup and no other ethnic group of today has it (Gjoka could be an ethnic Vlach, but it’s not sure).

You then say: <<As you can see, their names are already typical medieval Serbian. If they were an Albanian group, one would would expect that their names are predominantly Albanian in the beggining, and later gradually become more Serbian, trough a longer period of time.>>

This is true, but you gave only three mentions of Drobnjak names. There should be many more in order to irrefutably exclude other ethnicities than Serbs.

Nikatz, I know that this is a Serbian forum, but take also into account the fact that there are many ethnic South Slavs who have the I-FGC22061 haplogroup and were born abroad. They don’t live in the Balkans, they don’t learn at school the history of the South Slavs and the majority are not fluent in Serbo-Croatian. They will search the haplogroup with Google and see this forum thread. For them it is better to explain the things with provided proofs, because what is common knowledge for someone who lives in Serbia, is not common knowledge for an ethnic Serb who was born and lives abroad. Not to speak about other peoples. Customs differ greatly even in the Balkans. For example in medieval Rumania, Moldavia and Transylvania there were no tribes. And in today’s Rumania and Republic of Moldova the custom of a patron saint based on family name does not exist. Orthodox Rumanians and Moldavians have a personal patron saint, based on their first name. So, if a man has the first name Nicolae, then his patron saint is Saint Nicholas. If he has a brother named Vasile, then his brother has a different patron saint, Saint Basil.

Slobo [Слобо], just tell me where on the internet are the articles or books written by reputed Serb historians about the Drobnjaci tribe. I am willing to read them with automatic translation. About the Albanians with I-FGC22045, yes, they could form another branch, but they have a common ancestor with the I-FGC22061 branch. We want to find not only the ancestor of the Drobnjak branch, but also the common ancestor of the Drobnjaks and the Albanians, because it’s hard to believe, although possible, that two Scandinavians with very close haplogroups came to the Balkans and formed two genealogical lines very closely related.

It's possible that the ancestor of Drobnjaci was Albanian, but the surnames Abazović and Kočović aren't the proof for that. You are looking in the wrong direction.
Because a)the surnames Abazović and Kočović aren't specifically Albanian,  b) those are two out of hundreds of Drobnjaci surnames, and c)those surnames appear hundreds of years after the first mentions of the Drobnjaci.

I think you can agree that it makes more sense to look when and where are the earliest mentions of the Drobnjaci, and what were their names.

You missed an important point there. In 1300., Drobnjaci were just a couple of men with the tribal nickname Drobnjak, and typical Serbian names.
Abazović, Kočović, and all those other brotherhoods developed hundreds of years later. Some of Drobnjaci today aren't even I1 (I don't know if any Abazović or Kočović are tested?) , but genetically unrelated people who later joined the Drobnjaci. The ancestor of Abazovići could've also been a muslim who settled among the Drobnjaci and assimilated, or a Drobnjak who converted to Islam, and then back to Christianity. There are many options, but this isn't connected to the deeper origin of Drobnjaci, because it's too late in history.

Also, you need to know that the ending -ović means "son of", like -escu in Romanian. And there are specific gramatical rules when this ending is used.
Son of somebody called Koča or Kočo works gramatically, and makes the most sense.

[barbarylion]

It's possible that the ancestor of Drobnjaci was Albanian, but the surnames Abazović and Kočović aren't the proof for that. You are looking in the wrong direction.
Because a)the surnames Abazović and Kočović aren't specifically Albanian,  b) those are two out of hundreds of Drobnjaci surnames, and c)those surnames appear hundreds of years after the first mentions of the Drobnjaci.

I think you can agree that it makes more sense to look when and where are the earliest mentions of the Drobnjaci, and what were their names.

You missed an important point there. In 1300., Drobnjaci were just a couple of men with the tribal nickname Drobnjak, and typical Serbian names.
Abazović, Kočović, and all those other brotherhoods developed hundreds of years later. Some of Drobnjaci today aren't even I1 (I don't know if any Abazović or Kočović are tested?) , but genetically unrelated people who later joined the Drobnjaci. The ancestor of Abazovići could've also been a muslim who settled among the Drobnjaci and assimilated, or a Drobnjak who converted to Islam, and then back to Christianity. There are many options, but this isn't connected to the deeper origin of Drobnjaci, because it's too late in history.

Also, you need to know that the ending -ović means "son of", like -escu in Romanian. And there are specific gramatical rules when this ending is used.
Son of somebody called Koča or Kočo works gramatically, and makes the most sense.

Postoje li ikakve genetske indicije da bi rodonačelnki drobnjaka mogao biti Albanac? Ma kol'ko to suludo zvučalo.
Pokušavam da shvatim zašto ovaj čovek forsira tu priču čak i kada dobije odgovore.

[Никац]

Postoje li ikakve genetske indicije da bi rodonačelnki drobnjaka mogao biti Albanac? Ma kol'ko to suludo zvučalo.
Pokušavam da shvatim zašto ovaj čovek forsira tu priču čak i kada dobije odgovore.

Најближи рођак Дробњака је Украјинац, након тога неколико Албанаца.
Предак свих њих је живио највјероватније негдје на Балкану, око 800. године.

Украјинац из Луганска је вјероватно везан уз насељавање балканских народа у Новорусију у 18. вијеку.
Код Албанаца грана нема типични албански распоред, имамо двојицу Албанаца из Малакастера, што је близу зоне највеће концентрације Цинцара у Албанији, и још двојица из Поградеца и Дибра, што је мијешана албанско-македонска зона, а опет и Цинцари нису далеко.

Што се тиче дробњачке гране, на темељу првих историјских помена Херцеговини и Косову, било је теорија да су Дробњаци изворно били Словени (Срби) и да се тек нешто касније почињу бавити сточарством и називати Власима. Зато што у тим најранијим записима имају само типична српска средњовјековна имена, и углавном се не описују као Власи.

Сада кад имамо генетске резултате, мислим да се ипак најбоље уклапају у кретања Влаха, само што су релативно рано били потпуно асимиловани у Србе. То је барем моје виђење.

[barbarylion]

Најближи рођак Дробњака је Украјинац, након тога неколико Албанаца.
Предак свих њих је живио највјероватније негдје на Балкану, око 800. године.

Украјинац из Луганска је вјероватно везан уз насељавање балканских народа у Новорусију у 18. вијеку.
Код Албанаца грана нема типични албански распоред, имамо двојицу Албанаца из Малакастера, што је близу зоне највеће концентрације Цинцара у Албанији, и још двојица из Поградеца и Дибра, што је мијешана албанско-македонска зона, а опет и Цинцари нису далеко.

Што се тиче дробњачке гране, на темељу првих историјских помена Херцеговини и Косову, било је теорија да су Дробњаци изворно били Словени (Срби) и да се тек нешто касније почињу бавити сточарством и називати Власима. Зато што у тим најранијим записима имају само типична српска средњовјековна имена, и углавном се не описују као Власи.

Сада кад имамо генетске резултате, мислим да се ипак најбоље уклапају у кретања Влаха, само што су релативно рано били потпуно асимиловани у Србе. То је барем моје виђење.

Na osnovu svega ovoga zaista je nepotrebno njihovo svojatanje od strane Albanaca, to je čak neozbiljno i za razmatranje.

Da ne govorim o tome kakve mi uopste podatke imamo o Albancima pocetkom 9 veka( nikakve, niko nikakve).

Sto se Normana tice oni se pominju i kod Bodina, a i nesto ranije kada je kontakt sa Srbima u pitanju.

[abmunteanu]

This is a three part message.

First of all I will address the spamming and trolling accusations. Unfortunately, those that made them did not offer specific examples. I have been posting more frequently lately because I wanted to present all my research and opinions and then move on to do something else. The following messages are the last ones on this thread for the foreseeable future, because I don’t have anything more to say.

As for the trolling, I already said that I wanted to discover the link between the South Slavic branch and the Albanian branch. You cannot research this if you don’t presume a common Balkan ancestor of these branches. I presumed that this ancestor could be Albanian, simply for the fact that the Albanians have a haplogroup that is higher in the tree than the haplogroup of the South Slavs. Maybe it’s not true, and the common ancestor is a Vlach from North Macedonia, we don’t know this for the moment. The problem is that there is not a single man with the I-FGC22045 or I-FGC22061 haplogroups that identifies as a Vlach, or has a tree where his ancestors are identified as such. So, more research is needed, but the research cannot be truthful if there is a blind spot, and one of the possible ethnicities of the common ancestor is not taken into account. In a normal world, the Serbian DNA Project and the Albanian DNA project would have collaborated on this topic, but as I said, I understand the sensibilities triggered by the political situation. However, I have not heard about Serbia and Albania having stopped their diplomatic or trade relations. And if Serbia and Albania continue to collaborate by having diplomatic and economic relations, I don’t see why the Serbian and Albanian genealogists could not collaborate in solving genealogical enigmas.

What I don’t understand is the behavior of some users of the forum that want to dictate what can be discussed and what can not be discussed on it. The strangest part is that these persons don’t even have the I-FGC22061 haplogroup, so they are not directly interested in the subject. None of those that have the I-FGC22061 haplogroup has said that he feels insulted by my opinions, or that I am a spammer and a troll. When I told N. Kočović my theory about his name’s origin, he has not felt insulted, he accepted my opinion as one of the possible etymologies, and this is the normal reaction. We are only discussing here, the final word about name etymologies belongs to the linguists.

And now to the subject. NikolaVuk [НиколаВук], thanks for the explanations. But the dictionary of Grković is about personal names, that is first names. I was asking about a dictionary of Serbian (or South Slav) family names (last names), if it exists.

For example, there are 2 dictionaries of Rumanian family names written by linguists.

1) N. A. Constantinescu: Dicționar Onomastic Romînesc (Editura Academiei Republicii Populare Romîne, București, 1963) - 469 pages .

It is available for download on Academia.edu and Slideshare.
https://tinyurl.com/dictionar-onomastic
https://www.slideshare.net/gruianul/dicionar-onomastic-romnesc-constantinescu-nicolae-a

Very important, it has 3 separate parts, so a name can be in either one:
I) Nume Calendaristice = Calendar Names (biblical names)
II) Nume Laice = Secular Names (non-biblical names) - begins at page 179
III) Nume Rar Folosite = Rarely Used Names (rarely used non-biblical names) - begins at page 419

2) Iorgu Iordan: Dicționar al Numelor de Familie Românești (Editura Științifică și Enciclopedică, București, 1983) - 502 pages

It is not available for download, but you can search in it using Google Books.

https://tinyurl.com/dictionar-nume-iorgu-iordan

The dictionary of N.A. Constantinescu has fewer names, but more detailed explanations (etymologies) and even examples from the old writings, whereas the dictionary of Iorgu Iordan has many more names, but the explanations are very short.

Since I learned that Montenegrin children in the past could receive nicknames (including foreign ones) that in time could replace their original name, I don’t attach so much importance to the etymology of the names, but I don’t discard it completely in the study of genealogical trees. In the end, genetics is more important than onomastics in the study of genealogy, because it is less prone to error.

The following text is a discussion about a Rumanian name that sounds like Koč/Koç and how its etymology is presented in the N.A. Constantinescu’s dictionary. I don’t post it on the forum, as I don’t want to be accused again of I don’t know what. Those that want to read it can see and download the little text file hosted on my Google Drive account. The links in the text can be followed if they are selected with the mouse and copied to the clipboard, then pasted in the address bar of the browser and pressing the Enter key.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1B_2wgRvGYFfapDJW6xM7lLwMn8XIw6R1/view?usp=share_link

[abmunteanu]

Sometimes names may offer clues about the ethnicity of the persons that have them. It doesn’t mean that if person has the name X and this name is from the ethnic group Y, then X is of the Y ethnicity in all the cases. In some cases that may be true, in others not.

The following text is related to the topic of this thread, because it will present another hypothesis, not mentioned before, about how a Scandinavian haplogroup could have arrived in the Balkans.

It all started with the Abaza/Abazi name. We know about the Abazović family from the Drobnjak tribe. An ancestor of this family was probably named Abaza as a child either as a first name, or as  a nickname that in the end became his official first name inherited by his descendants. There is also a legend about a Drobnjak ancestor that got the nickname Abazović while being an adult. We don’t know the truth at this time and we don’t know the genetic ethnicity of the Drobnjak with the Abazović name. If the remains of Pavle Abazović are unearthed and the DNA tested, we may get some clues about the genetic ethnicity of his ancestors.

The majority here on the forum have the opinion that the name Abaza/Abazi comes from the Turkish name Abbas. I don’t deny this, but this name can also come from the name of a Caucasian people named Abaza (Abazins in English). This was my opinion based on the book about the boyars in Rumania and Moldavia, where there is an article about the Abaza family from medieval Moldavia.

Now I have the confirmation that my opinion was correct. There is an entry about the name Abaza in N.A. Constantinescu’s dictionary. I will post a screenshot with the dictionary entry below, but if you have downloaded the dictionary you can find it at the page 179.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1X6JezoUxSJXpHM7eKq14carIp7U7Aw4x/view?usp=sharing

The translation is the following (the text inside square brackets is added by me for better understanding) :
-----------------
ABAZA ethnic [name], from the Abazi or Abkhazi, Caucasian people, Circassians who came alongside the wife of Vasile Lupu ([as written in the chronicle of Miron] Costin). 1. Abază, Nicolae, nephew of Vasile Lupu, who apparently took his name from the renowned Abaza, pasha of Silistra, contemporary. [...] 2. Abăzești, Moldavian family originary from Abazia [Abkhazia]
-----------------

The Abaza family from Moldavia has no male descendants from the end of the 19th century. But the Abaza family from Russia exists to this day. So I searched their name, Абаза, and found the Wikipedia article in Russian.

https://tinyurl.com/abaza-russia (original article in Russian)
https://tinyurl.com/abaza-russia-en (translation in English)

At the beginning of the article it is said that the ancestor of this Russian family was Abaza Mehmed Pasha, who also has an article on Russian Wikipedia.

https://tinyurl.com/abaza-mehmed-pasha (original article in Russian)
https://tinyurl.com/abaza-mehmed-pasha-en (translation in English)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaza_Mehmed_Pasha (original article in English)

In the article it is said that Abaza Mehmed Pasha (1576-1634) was born in Budapest, in a princely family from Bessarabia. I will add that Bessarabia was the name of a region that was incorporated in 1812 into the Russian Empire, a territory that is roughly the territory of today’s Republic of Moldova. But at the time of Abaza Mehmed Pasha, that territory was part of the medieval state of Moldavia, a vassal state of the Ottoman Empire. Budapest also was in the Ottoman Empire at that time. As a child, Abaza moved to Istanbul with his parents, thanks to the support of the Sultan’s concubine Halime, who was of Abkhazian origin. As an adult he became an official of the Ottoman empire with various assignments. In 1628-1631 he was the governor of Bosnia. In 1634 Abaza Mehmed Pasha appointed Vasile Lupu (real name Lupu Coci) as the ruler of Moldavia.

In 1633, in Iași (Moldavia), Abaza Mehmed Pasha married his second wife, Ekaterina, the daughter of the Polish military commander Stanisław Koniecpolski, who according his own Wikipedia article had most of his possessions in Ukraine and <<became Ukraine's unofficial ruler; some foreigners referred to him as "viceroy of Ukraine">>.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanis%C5%82aw_Koniecpolski

The son of Abaza Mehmed Pasha with his Polish wife was Andrii Abazyn, a Ukrainian Cossack colonel, who fought alongside the Poles against the Turks and Tatars and then against the Poles and was executed by the latter. I have no idea why in the English article it is said that his allegiance was “Valahia”, which was the name given by the foreigners to medieval Rumania (which did not include Moldavia at that time). Maybe because his wife was of Moldavian origin, as judging by her name (Safta Dociul). He had 4 children, 3 boys and a girl who were raised in Moldavia. One of the boys, Ilya Abaza [Ilie Abaza in Rumanian], a Moldavian boyar, is the ancestor of the Russian branch of the Abaza family, having emigrated in Russia in 1711.

https://tinyurl.com/andrey-abazin (original article in Russian)
https://tinyurl.com/andrey-abazin-en (translation in English)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrii_Abazyn (original article in English)

The Russian article about Andrey Abazin also provides a link to a PDF book written by Sergiu Bacalov and published in 2012 in the Republic of Moldova. It contains a section about the Moldavian Abaza family at the page 398. He provides a genealogical tree at the page 414.

https://tinyurl.com/bacalov-boierimea-moldovei

The Abaza family has a genealogical tree on Geni:

https://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000016644121301

[abmunteanu]

Now we arrive at the connection with the Varangians. By researching the Abaza people from the Caucasus I stumbled on an article about the Caspian campaigns of the Rus’, that is the Varangians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_expeditions_of_the_Rus%CA%B9

According to the article, the Rus’ sailed on the Volga river and undertook military raids on the Caspian Sea shores between 864 and 1041, sometimes with a big number of ships. On the western Caspian Sea shore is the Caucasus, where Abazinia (the land of the Abaza people) is located. Have the Rus’ brought the I1 haplogroup to the Caucasus? Yes. On the Russian genealogy forum there is a thread with this subject. Read from page 8 on.

https://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,1257.0.html (original thread in Russian)
https://tinyurl.com/I1-haplogroup-caucasus (translation in English)

In that thread was posted a link to a Wikipedia article about a raid of the Rus’ on the city of Barda, in today’s Azerbaidjan.

https://tinyurl.com/varangians-barda-ru (original article in Russian)
https://tinyurl.com/varangians-barda-en (translation in English)

There is also a forum thread on Anthrogenica about this I1:

https://tinyurl.com/anthrogenica-caucasian-I1

We now know about the existence of Abazins in the Ottoman empire, some of them in official functions. We have one of these officials, Abaza Mehmed Pasha, who was governor of Bosnia, then married a Polish noblewoman. His son Andrey/Andrii was a Cossack colonel in Ukraine, whose son Ilya became a Moldavian boyar, and then a Russian noble.

There were probably many other Abazins/Abkhazians that had official functions in the Ottoman empire. Two notable examples are below. In all these cases their Abaza name came from their ethnicity, not from the Turkish name Abbas. Some of these officials were sent to the Balkan provinces of the Ottoman empire. And they would bring with them members of their close family, but also people of their ethnic origin, which were loyal to them, and of course soldiers of Abazin/Abkhazian origin. Some of them could have had the I1 haplogroup inherited from the Rus’ (Varangians) and if they settled in the Balkans, they passed it to their Balkan descendants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaza_Siyavu%C5%9F_Pasha_I (he also was a governor of Bosnia)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaza_Siyavu%C5%9F_Pasha

It is interesting that the name Abaza appears in the Drobnjak family only after the incursion of Vučur and 50 other Drobnjaks in Asia Minor, which is very close to the Caucasus. We don’t know when Vučur went to Asia Minor (A. Jaksic says that it was around 1482, but this is his personal estimation). Also, Vučur Abazović Drobnjak received land in the region of Gacko, where Nikola Rašković Drobnjak (the only confirmed medieval Drobnjak with the I-FGC22061 haplogroup) is buried. We don’t know when Nikola Rašković Drobnjak  was born, there are estimations based on the apparition of this name in medieval documents, but only the radiocarbon C14 dating will provide a scientific estimation. And we don’t know what kinship was between Vučur Abazović Drobnjak and Nikola Rašković Drobnjak.

Finally, since I began by discussing about a name, let’s finish with a name.

The name Vučur reminds me of the Rumanian name Bucur (where "c" is pronounced "k", not "č"). So, Bucur is pronounced like Bukur in Serbian or Bookoor in English.

There is an entry about the name Bucur in N.A. Constantinescu’s dictionary. I will post a screenshot with the dictionary entry below, but if you have downloaded the dictionary you can find it at the page 219. The text inside square brackets is added by me.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_Tx0ZY_gGPL3IRhJQ3M6iPOQ1CqpIovl/view?usp=sharing

The definition says:
<<old name coming from the verb “a bucura” [to feel happiness] and the noun “bucurie” [happiness]. cf. Albanian bucurë [actually “bukurë”] meaning “beautiful”. [...] I.1. Bucur (Morl 6); Vlach from Serbia; - eponym of the capital and of many villages with the name Bucur/ești, -eni, -escu. [...]>>

The letter group “cf.” is the shortening of “conform” [in conformity with], which is used to say that a similar word (name) is encountered in another language. This does not mean that the foreign word (name) is the origin of the Rumanian one, only that it is pronounced similarly.

It is interesting that the first mention of an example of this name is of a Vlach from Serbia. If you go to the bibliography of the dictionary at the page LXXI you will find that “Morl 6” is the shortening of the title of an article named “Despre Morlachi“ [About the Morlachs] written by N.A. Constantinescu in 1921.

According to the Wikipedia article: <<Morlachs (Serbo-Croatian: Morlaci, Морлаци or Crni Vlasi, Црни Власи; Italian: Morlacchi; Romanian: Morlaci) has been an exonym used for a rural Christian community in Herzegovina, Lika and the Dalmatian Hinterland.>>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morlachs

We have a mention of a Vlach (Morlach) with the name Bucur. But as I said, the Serbian Vučur is not pronounced as the Rumanian Bucur. A dictionary of family names encountered in Serbia could provide the answer if the name Bucur/Bukur would transform itself in Vučur.

Surely the thorough DNA testing of Nikola Rašković Drobnjak and Pavle Abazović would offer some anwsers.

P.S. Maybe I will post little messages if I hear about something interesting. I have contacted Gjoka at the end of last year and asked him if he has Vlachs ancestors on his paternal side. He did not respond to my message. I have also contacted last week the Hungarian with the I-S14887 haplogroup. He didn’t respond either. So, for the time being, I have nothing more to say on the subject.

[abmunteanu]

Il s'agit d'un message en trois parties.

Tout d'abord, je vais répondre aux accusations de spam et d’être un troll. Malheureusement, ceux qui les ont faites n'ont pas offert d'exemples spécifiques. J'ai posté plus fréquemment ces derniers temps parce que je voulais présenter toutes mes recherches et opinions, puis passer à autre chose. Les messages suivants sont les derniers sur ce fil dans un avenir prévisible, car je n'ai rien de plus à dire.

Quant à l'accusation d’être un troll, j'ai déjà dit que je voulais découvrir le lien entre la branche slave sud et la branche albanaise. On ne peut pas rechercher cela si on ne présume pas un ancêtre balkanique commun de ces branches. J'ai présumé que cet ancêtre pourrait être albanais, simplement pour le fait que les Albanais ont un haplogroupe qui est plus élevé dans l'arbre que l'haplogroupe des Slaves du Sud. Peut-être que ce n'est pas vrai, et l'ancêtre commun est un Valaque du nord de la Macédoine, nous ne le savons pas pour le moment. Le problème est qu'il n'y a pas un seul homme avec les haplogroupes I-FGC22045 ou I-FGC22061 qui s'identifie comme Valaque, ou a un arbre où ses ancêtres sont identifiés comme tels. Donc, plus de recherches sont nécessaires, mais la recherche ne peut pas être véridique s'il y a un angle mort, et l'une des ethnies possibles de l'ancêtre commun n'est pas prise en compte. Dans un monde normal, le projet d'ADN serbe et le projet d'ADN albanais auraient collaboré sur ce sujet, mais comme je l'ai dit, je comprends les sensibilités déclenchées par la situation politique. Cependant, je n'ai pas entendu parler de la Serbie et de l'Albanie ayant arrêté leurs relations diplomatiques ou commerciales. Et si la Serbie et l'Albanie continuent de collaborer en ayant des relations diplomatiques et économiques, je ne vois pas pourquoi les généalogistes serbes et albanais ne pourraient pas collaborer pour résoudre des énigmes généalogiques.

Ce que je ne comprends pas, c'est le comportement de certains utilisateurs du forum qui souhaitent dicter ce qui peut être discuté et ce qui ne peut pas être discuté à ce sujet. La partie la plus étrange est que ces personnes n'ont même pas l'haplogroupe I-FGC22061, donc elles ne sont donc pas directement intéressées par le sujet. Aucun de ceux qui ont l'haplogroupe I-FGC22061 n'a dit qu'il se sentait insulté par mes opinions, ou que je suis un spammeur et un troll. Quand j'ai dit à N. Kočović ma théorie sur l'origine de son nom, il ne s'est pas senti insulté, il a accepté mon opinion comme l'une des étymologies possibles, et c'est la réaction normale. Nous seulement discutons ici, le dernier mot sur l' étymologie des noms appartient aux linguistes.

Et maintenant au sujet. NikolaVuk [НиколаВук], merci pour les explications. Mais le dictionnaire de Grković concerne les noms personnels, c'est-à-dire les prénoms. Je demandais un dictionnaire de noms de famille serbe (ou slaves du sud), s'il existe.

Par exemple, il existe 2 dictionnaires de noms de famille roumains écrits par des linguistes.

1) N. A. Constantinescu: dicționar onomastic Romînesc (Editura Academiei Republicii populare Romîne, București, 1963) - 469 pages.

Il est disponible en téléchargement sur Academia.edu et Slideshare.
https://tinyurl.com/dictionar-onomastic
https://www.slideshare.net/gruianul/dicionar-onomastic-romnesc-constantinescu-nicolae-a

Très important, il a 3 parties distinctes, donc un nom peut être dans l'une ou l'autre:
I) Nume Calendaristice = noms de calendrier (noms bibliques)
Ii) Nume Laice = noms laïques (noms non bibliques) - commence à la page 179
Iii) Nume Rar Folosite = Noms rarement utilisés (des noms non bibliques rarement utilisés) - commence à la page 419

2) Iorgu Iordan: Dicționar al Numelor de Familie Românești (Editura Științifică și Enciclopedică, București, 1983) - 502 pages

Il n'est pas disponible en téléchargement, mais vous pouvez y rechercher dedans à l'aide de Google Books.

https://tinyurl.com/dictionar-nume-iorgu-iordan

Le dictionnaire de N.A. Constantinescu a moins de noms, mais des explications (étymologies) plus détaillées et même des exemples des anciens écrits, tandis que le dictionnaire d'Iorgu Iordan a beaucoup plus de noms, mais les explications sont très courtes.

Depuis que j'ai appris que les enfants monténégrins dans le passé pouvaient recevoir des surnoms (y compris des étrangers) qui, avec le temps, pourraient remplacer leur nom d'origine, je n'attache pas autant d'importance à l'étymologie des noms, mais je ne le abandonne pas complètement dans l'étude des arbres généalogiques. En fin de compte, la génétique est plus importante que l'onomastique dans l'étude de la généalogie, car elle est moins sujette à l'erreur.

Le texte suivant est une discussion sur un nom roumain qui ressemble à Koč / Koç et comment son étymologie est présentée dans le dictionnaire de N.A. Constantinescu. Je ne le poste pas sur le forum, car je ne veux plus être accusé de je ne sais pas quoi. Ceux qui veulent le lire peuvent voir et télécharger le petit fichier texte hébergé sur mon compte Google Drive. Les liens du texte peuvent être suivis s'ils sont sélectionnés avec la souris et copiés dans le presse-papiers, puis collés dans la barre d'adresse du navigateur et appuyer sur la touche Entrée.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1B_2wgRvGYFfapDJW6xM7lLwMn8XIw6R1/view?usp=share_link

[abmunteanu]

Parfois, les noms peuvent offrir des indices sur l'ethnicité des personnes qui les portent. Cela ne signifie pas que si la personne a le nom X et que ce nom provient du groupe ethnique Y, alors X est de l'ethnicité Y dans tous les cas. Dans certains cas, cela peut être vrai, dans d'autres non.

Le texte suivant est lié au sujet de ce fil, car il présentera une autre hypothèse, non mentionnée auparavant, sur la façon dont un haplogroup scandinave aurait pu arriver dans les Balkans.

Tout a commencé avec le nom Abaza / Abazi. Nous connaissons la famille Abazović de la tribu Drobnjak. Un ancêtre de cette famille, quand il était enfant, a probablement été nommé Abaza soit comme un prénom, soit comme un surnom qui est finalement devenu son prénom officiel hérité par ses descendants. Il y a aussi une légende sur un ancêtre Drobnjak qui a obtenu le surnom d'Abazović tout en étant adulte. Nous ne connaissons pas la vérité en ce moment et nous ne connaissons pas l'ethnicité génétique du Drobnjak avec le nom Abazović. Si les restes de Pavle Abazović sont déterrés et que son ADN est testé, on peut obtenir des indices sur l'ethnicité génétique de ses ancêtres.

La majorité ici sur le forum est de l'avis que le nom Abaza / Abazi vient du nom turc Abbas. Je ne nie pas cela, mais ce nom peut également provenir du nom d'un peuple caucasien nommé Abaza (Abazines en français). C'était mon opinion basée sur le livre sur les Boyars en Roumanie et en Moldavie, où il y a un article sur la famille Abaza de la Moldavie médiévale.

Maintenant, j'ai la confirmation que mon opinion était correcte. Il y a une entrée sur le nom d'Abaza dans le dictionnaire de N.A. Constantinescu. Je publierai une capture d'écran avec l'entrée du dictionnaire ci-dessous, mais si vous avez téléchargé le dictionnaire, vous pouvez le trouver à la page 179.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1X6JezoUxSJXpHM7eKq14carIp7U7Aw4x/view?usp=sharing

La traduction est la suivante (le texte à l'intérieur des crochets est ajouté par moi pour une meilleure compréhension):
-----------------
Abaza [nom] ethnique, du peuple caucasien Abazin ou Abkhaze, des circassiens qui sont venus à côté de l'épouse de Vasile Lupu ([comme est écrit dans la chronique de Miron] Costin). 1. Abază, Nicolae, neveu de Vasile Lupu, qui a apparemment pris son nom du célèbre Abaza, Pacha de Silistra, contemporain. [...] 2. Abăzești, famille Moldave originaire d'Abazie [Abkhazie]
-----------------

La famille Abaza de Moldavie n'a pas de descendants masculins depuis la fin du 19e siècle. Mais la famille Abaza de Russie existe à ce jour. J'ai donc cherché leur nom, Aбаза, et j'ai trouvé l'article Wikipedia en russe.

https://tinyurl.com/abaza-russia (article original en russe)
https://tinyurl.com/abaza-russie (traduction en français)

Au début de l'article, il est dit que l'ancêtre de cette famille russe était Abaza Mehmed Pacha, qui a également un article sur le Wikipedia russe.

https://tinyurl.com/abaza-mehmed-pasha  (article original en russe)
https://tinyurl.com/abaza-mehmed-pacha (traduction en français)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaza_Mehmed_Pasha (article original en anglais)

Dans l'article, il est dit qu'Abaza Mehmed Pacha (1576-1634) est née à Budapest, dans une famille princière de Bessarabie. J'ajouterai que la Bessarabie était le nom d'une région qui a été incorporée en 1812 dans l'Empire russe, un territoire qui est à peu près le territoire de la République de Moldavie d'aujourd'hui. Mais à l'époque d'Abaza Mehmed Pacha, ce territoire faisait partie de l'État médiéval de Moldavie, un État vassal de l'Empire ottoman. Budapest était également dans l'Empire ottoman à l'époque. Enfant, Abaza a déménagé à Istanbul avec ses parents, grâce au soutien de la concubine du sultan Halime, qui était d'origine abkhaze. En tant qu'adulte, il est devenu un fonctionnaire de l'Empire ottoman avec diverses missions. En 1628-1631, il était le gouverneur de la Bosnie. En 1634, Abaza Mehmed Pacha a nommé Vasile Lupu (vrai nom Lupu Coci) comme souverain de Moldavie.

En 1633, à Iași (Moldavie), Abaza Mehmed Pacha a épousé sa deuxième épouse, Ekaterina, la fille du commandant militaire polonais Stanisław Koniecpolski, qui, selon son propre article de Wikipedia, avait la plupart de ses biens en Ukraine et << est devenu le souverain non officiel de l'Ukraine; certains étrangers l'ont appelé "vice-roi d'Ukraine" >>.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanis%C5%82aw_Koniecpolski

Le fils d'Abaza Mehmed Pacha avec sa femme polonaise était Andrii Abazyn, un colonel cosaque ukrainien, qui a combattu aux côtés des Polonais contre les Turcs et Tatars, puis contre les Polonais et a été exécuté par ces derniers. Je ne sais pas pourquoi dans l'article en anglais, il est dit que son allégeance était «Valaquie», qui était le nom donné par les étrangers à la Roumanie médiévale (qui n'incluait pas la Moldavie à l'époque). Peut-être parce que sa femme était d'origine moldave, à en juger par son nom (Safta Dociul). Il a eu 4 enfants, 3 garçons et une fille élevées en Moldavie. L'un des garçons, Ilya Abaza [Ilie Abaza en roumain], un Boyar moldave, est l'ancêtre de la branche russe de la famille Abaza, ayant émigré en Russie en 1711.

https://tinyurl.com/andrey-abazin (article original en russe)
https://tinyurl.com/andrey-abazin-fr (traduction en français)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrii_Abazyn (article original en anglais)

L'article russe sur Andrey Abazin fournit également un lien vers un livre en format PDF écrit par Sergiu Bacalov et publié en 2012 en République de Moldavie. Il contient une section sur la famille Moldave Abaza à la page 398. Il fournit un arbre généalogique à la page 414.

https://tinyurl.com/bacalov-boierimea-moldovei

La famille Abaza a un arbre généalogique sur Geni:

https://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000016644121301

[abmunteanu]

Maintenant, nous arrivons à la connexion avec les Varègues. En recherchant le peuple Abazin du Caucase, je suis tombé sur un article sur les campagnes Caspiennes des Rus’.

https://tinyurl.com/varegues-mer-caspienne

Selon l'article, les Rus’ ont navigué sur la rivière Volga et entrepris des raids militaires sur les rives de la mer Caspienne entre 864 et 1041, parfois avec un grand nombre de navires. Sur la côte occidentale de la mer Caspienne se trouve le Caucase, où se trouve l'Abazinie (le pays du peuple Abaza). Les Rus' ont-ils apporté l’haplogroupe I1 au Caucase? Oui. Sur le forum de généalogie russe, il y a un fil avec ce sujet. Lisez à partir de la page 8.

https://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,1257.0.html (fil original en russe)
https://tinyurl.com/haplogroupe-I1-caucase (traduction en français)

Dans ce fil a été publié un lien vers un article de Wikipedia sur un raid des Rus’ sur la ville de Barda, dans Azerbaidjan d'aujourd'hui.

https://tinyurl.com/varangians-barda-ru (article original en russe)
https://tinyurl.com/varegues-barda (traduction en anglais)

Il y a aussi un fil de forum sur Anthrogenica à ce sujet I1:

https://tinyurl.com/anthrogenica-caucase-I1

Nous connaissons maintenant l'existence d'Abazins dans l'Empire ottoman, dont certains dans des fonctions officielles. Nous avons l'un de ces fonctionnaires, Abaza Mehmed Pacha, qui a été gouverneur de la Bosnie, puis a épousé une noble polonaise. Son fils Andrey / Andrii était un colonel cosaque en Ukraine, dont le fils Ilya est devenu un boyar moldave, puis un noble russe.

Il y avait probablement beaucoup d'autres Abazins / Abkhaziens qui avaient des fonctions officielles dans l'Empire ottoman. Deux exemples notables sont ci-dessous. Dans tous ces cas, leur nom Abaza est venu de leur appartenance ethnique, et non pas du nom turc Abbas. Certains de ces fonctionnaires ont été envoyés dans les provinces Balkaniques de l'Empire ottoman. Et ils apportaient avec eux des membres de leur famille proche, mais aussi des gens ayant la même origine ethnique, qui leur étaient fidèles, et bien sûr des soldats d'origine abazine / abkhazienne. Certains d’entre eux auraient pu avoir l’haplogroupe I1 hérité des Rus' (Varègues) et s’ils se sont installés dans les Balkans, ils l'ont transmis à leurs descendants.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaza_Siyavu%C5%9F_Pacha_I (également gouverneur de la Bosnie)
https://tinyurl.com/abaza-siyavush-pacha

Il est intéressant de noter que le nom Abaza n'apparaît dans la famille Drobnjak qu'après l'incursion de Vučur et 50 autres Drobnjaks en Asie Mineure, qui est très proche du Caucase. Nous ne savons pas quand Vučur est allé en Asie Mineure (A. Jaksic dit que c'était vers 1482, mais c'est son estimation personnelle). De plus, Vučur Abazović Drobnjak a reçu des terres dans la région de Gacko, où Nikola Rašković Drobnjak (le seul Drobnjak médiéval confirmé avec l'haplogroupe I-FGC22061) est enterré. Nous ne savons pas quand Nikola Rašković Drobnjak est né, il y a des estimations basées sur l'apparition de ce nom dans des documents médiévaux, mais seule la datation au radiocarbone C14 fournira une estimation scientifique. Et nous ne savons pas quelle était la parenté entre Vučur Abazović Drobnjak et Nikola Rašković Drobnjak.

Enfin, comme j'ai commencé par discuter d'un nom, terminons avec un nom.

Le nom Vučur me rappelle le nom roumain Bucur (où "c" est prononcé "k", pas "č"). Ainsi, Bucur se prononce comme Bukur en serbe ou Boucour en français.

Il y a une entrée sur le nom de Bucur dans le dictionnaire de N.A. Constantinescu. Je publie une capture d'écran avec l'entrée du dictionnaire ci-dessous, mais si vous avez téléchargé le dictionnaire, vous pouvez le trouver à la page 219. Le texte à l'intérieur des crochets est ajouté par moi.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_Tx0ZY_gGPL3IRhJQ3M6iPOQ1CqpIovl/view?usp=sharing

La définition indique:
<< nom ancien venant du verbe «a bucura» [ressentir la joie] et le substantif «bucurie» [joie]. cf. l’albanais bucurë [en fait «bukurë»] signifiant «beau». [...] i.1. Bucur (Morl 6); Valaque de Serbie; - Eponyme de la capitale et de nombreux villages avec le nom Bucur / ești, -eni, -escu. [...] >>

Le groupe de lettres «cf.» est le raccourcissement de «conform» [conformément à], qui est utilisé pour dire qu'un mot (nom) similaire est rencontré dans une autre langue. Cela ne signifie pas que le mot (nom) étranger est à l'origine de celui roumain, seulement qu'il est prononcé de la même manière.

Il est intéressant de noter que la première mention d'un exemple de ce nom est d'un Valaque de Serbie. Si vous allez à la bibliographie du dictionnaire à la page LXXI, vous constaterez que «Morl 6» est le raccourcissement du titre d'un article nommé «Despre Morlachi» [Sur les Morlachs] écrit par N.A. Constantinescu en 1921.

Selon l'article de Wikipedia: << Morlaques (Serbo-Croatian: Morlaci, Морлаци ou Crni Vlasi, Црни Власи; italien: Morlacchi; Roumain: Morlaci) a été un exonyme utilisé pour une communauté chrétienne rurale de Herzegovine, Lika et l'arrière-pays Dalmate. >>

https://tinyurl.com/morlaques-en

On a une mention d'un Valaque (Morlach) avec le nom Bucur. Mais comme je l'ai dit, le Vučur serbe n'est pas prononcé comme le Bucur roumain. Un dictionnaire de noms de famille rencontrés en Serbie pourrait fournir la réponse si le nom Bucur / Bukur se transformerait dans Vučur.

Les tests ADN approfondis de Nikola Rašković Drobnjak et Pavle Abazović offriraient des réponses.

P.S. Peut-être que je publierai de petits messages si j'entends parler de quelque chose d'intéressant. J'ai contacté Gjoka à la fin de l'année dernière et je lui ai demandé s'il avait des ancêtres Valaques du côté paternel. Il n'a pas répondu à mon message. J'ai également contacté la semaine dernière le Hongrois avec l'haplogroupe I-S14887. Il n'a pas répondu non plus. Donc, je n'ai plus rien à dire sur le sujet.

[НиколаВук]

Abmunteanu, или не читаш добро шта ти Никац и ја пишемо, или ти Гугл преводилац лоше преводи оно што пишемо. Отишао си далеко у својеврсну езотерију без икакве потребе, само због лошег тумачења назива једног млађег дробњачког братства (Абазовића). Никац ти је већ око тога лепо одговорио, али ти га или ниси разумео или одбијаш да га разумеш:

It's possible that the ancestor of Drobnjaci was Albanian, but the surnames Abazović and Kočović aren't the proof for that. You are looking in the wrong direction.
Because a)the surnames Abazović and Kočović aren't specifically Albanian,  b) those are two out of hundreds of Drobnjaci surnames, and c)those surnames appear hundreds of years after the first mentions of the Drobnjaci.

I think you can agree that it makes more sense to look when and where are the earliest mentions of the Drobnjaci, and what were their names.

You missed an important point there. In 1300., Drobnjaci were just a couple of men with the tribal nickname Drobnjak, and typical Serbian names.
Abazović, Kočović, and all those other brotherhoods developed hundreds of years later. Some of Drobnjaci today aren't even I1 (I don't know if any Abazović or Kočović are tested?) , but genetically unrelated people who later joined the Drobnjaci. The ancestor of Abazovići could've also been a muslim who settled among the Drobnjaci and assimilated, or a Drobnjak who converted to Islam, and then back to Christianity. There are many options, but this isn't connected to the deeper origin of Drobnjaci, because it's too late in history.

Also, you need to know that the ending -ović means "son of", like -escu in Romanian. And there are specific gramatical rules when this ending is used.
Son of somebody called Koča or Kočo works gramatically, and makes the most sense.

Има ту још гомила грешака, као што је повезивање имена Вучур са румунским bucur. Не, свакако није у питању исти изговор, Вучур се изговара као Voochoor, а не bucur. Корен имена је именица "вук", од кога се изводи и лично име Вук и његове изведенице, од којих је једна и Вучур. Не мораш ићи у даљу разраду своје тезе јер су јој основне премисе потпуно погрешне. Такође бих те замолио да пронађеш неки краћи начин да изразиш своје мисли, јер заиста ово писање огромних објава и то и на енглеском и на француском може да се протумачи као спамовање. Пиши краће, а садржајније објаве и то само на енглеском (Гугл преводилац боље преводи са енглеског на француски него са српског на француски, па RajkoK неће остати ускраћен).

[Uzi]

Према подацима из 1948. године, Нужде су пописане у више банијских и славонских села, с тим што је извесно да је главнина славонских Нужди пореклом са Баније (нема их у ранијим пописима Славоније, док се 1898. године помињу само у једној славонској парохији и крсна слава је Никољдан, као и код Банијаца).

Можемо рећи да су Нужде присутне на Банији најкасније од половине XVIII века, пошто 1772. године имамо помен Петра Нужде на подручју Јавнице. Петар је рођен око 1751. године у Јавници.



Нешто касније (1778) помиње се и Давид Нужда. Дакле, Нужде су током друге половине XVIII века имале најмање 1 породичну задругу на подручју Јавнице.

Јавница је занимљиво село, пошто је до 1778. године дошло до издвајања Сочанице из њеног састава, а од 1931. године и Котарани се воде као самостално насеље. Управо у Котаранима било је највише људи са презименом Нужда (4 куће са 24 особе 1948. године). Још једна ствар која може бити занимљива је та што у Сочаници постоје и Дробњаци (крсна слава Ђурђевдан), за које можемо претпоставити да припадају хаплогрупи I1-P109 (што због презимена, што због резултата Дробњака из Горње Млиноге код Петриње). Иначе, на Банији су Дробњаци од друге половине XVIII века потврђени у селима Јавница (касније Сочаница), Мали Градац, Млинога и Чемерница - свуда прослављају Ђурђевдан.

Овај харамбаша са слике би могао бити исти тај Давид Нужда који се помиње у 1778. Слика је прављена 1820. године. Насеље од иза би могло бити Нови, а грађевина на брду Лаудонов шанац?

[abmunteanu]

This is a two part message.

NikolaVuk [НиколаВук], I already said that I wanted to research the connection of the South Slavic branch with the Albanian branch. I tried to see if I can explain this connection by my father's Albanian matches. This is why I discussed about the name Abaza/Abazović, which is present both in the genealogy of some Serbian families that have the I-FGC22045 haplogroup and in some of my father’s autosomal matches of Albanian descent. I don’t know why you say that this research was “esoteric”, because I procedeed in the most scientific way, with references to articles from the internet and other sources. You say that the Abazović branch is young, and this may be true, but we don’t know when the I-FGC22045 haplogroup has appeared in the Drobnjak tribe. The earliest man on record with this confirmed haplogroup is Nikola Rašković Drobnjak.

I have read Nikatz's [Никац] message, but he is wrong. I am not trying to demonstrate that the ancestor of the Drobnjaci was Albanian, I am trying to find the link between the South Slavic and the Albanian branches, if they are separate branches and not the same one. Many on this thread probably see these branches as completely separate, coming from two separate Scandinavian ancestors who had the same haplogroup. This could be true, but at this time the origin from the same Scandinavian ancestor seems more probable.

Nikatz makes another wrong assumption. He misunderstands my approach. I am not trying to research the ethnic origin of the Drobnjak tribe. The Drobnjak tribe was Serbian and stayed Serbian troughout the time, regardless of the genetic ethnicity of the men that composed it. I am trying to research the origin of the I-FGC22045 in the Balkans. As anybody can see on YFull, the European haplogroups are more or less present all over Europe. For example the I1 haplogroup is encountered in all the European countries and those that have it have the ethnicity of their family, not a Germanic ethnicity.

Sometimes the genealogical research can discover things that may be unpleasant, but this is the price to pay if you want to discover the truth. I read some time ago a book named “Blood of the Isles: Exploring the Genetic Roots of Our Tribal History”. It was written by Bryan Sykes, who was one of the first scientists to apply mtDNA and Y DNA haplogroups in genealogy research. The book investigated the haplogroups from the British Isles. One chapter is dedicated to the genealogy of the MacDonald clan, one of the biggest Scottish clans (tribes). The Scots are of Irish ancestry, so they are ethnic Celts. The ancestor of the clan is considered a Celtic hero who has fought and defeated the Vikings. Bryan Sykes tested a few contemporary descendents of this ancestor and to their surprise revealed the fact that he was of Scandinavian origin on his paternal side. It was surely unpleasant for the MacDonalds to hear this, but this did not change the historical fact that their ancestor was a Scottish hero. This is valid also for the Drobnjak tribe. Even if the ancestor with the I-FGC22045 haplogroup was not an ethnic Serb on his paternal line, the tribe was Serbian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Donald
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerled
https://electricscotland.com/history/articles/ScotlandsR1a1HighlandClansmen.pdf

[abmunteanu]

You cannot scientifically research the I-FGC22045 haplogroup in order to find its origin if you don’t take into consideration all the persons that have it. You cannot find the origin of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup if you limit your research to the descendants of the Drobnjak tribe. There are maybe 30 Big Y tests of Drobnjak descendants on YFull and this has not advanced at all the research about the I-FGC22045 haplogroup. This has advanced only the genealogical research about the families that are descending from the Drobnjak tribe.

In order to advance we must investigate the men who are not the descendants of the Drobnjaci. The other population that has an important number of men with the I-FGC22045 haplogroup are the Albanians, and they have only 1 man present on YFull. I am not the first who has discussed on this thread the link betwen the Drobnjaci and the Albanians. If you go to the page 53 of the thread you can find a message posted by Amicus. He is speaking about two Albanians, one named Zeqiri and the other Veliu, who both have the I-FGC22045 haplogroup. He has found in a book mentions of two families named Velijović and Zečirović.

https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=472.msg146562#msg146562

Amicus has posted his message in November 2020. It is now more than two years later and things have not advanced at all about the Albanians. Veliu and Zeqiri are still I-FGC22045 and very probably do not think about taking a more detailed Y-DNA test. I have discussed last week with two Albanian administrators of FTDNA groups, one from Rrenjet (same name on FTDNA), the other from Gjenetika (Albanian Bloodlines on FTDNA). They told me that the Albanian I-FGC22045 results from Rrenjet and Gjenetika are from single SNP testing at YSEQ. This means that Veliu and Zeqiri don’t have the old I-FGC22045 haplogroup, but more modern ones to be discovered. I was thinking of donating 18 dollars to see if Zeqiri is positive for the I-FGC22052 SNP. But if he turns out negative, we have not advanced at all. So I was thinking if anybody else would be interested to contribute in order to pay for a Dante Labs test for an Albanian who has the I-FGC22045 haplogroup. This way we can find his precise haplogroup and see if there is indeed an Albanian branch which is separate from the Drobnjak branch. At 200 euros the Dante Labs test is the cheapest of the detailed Y-DNA tests. I want to emphasize that this was my idea, not the idea of the Albanian administrators. If anyone is interested, he can contact me on my e-mail address [email protected] and discuss how we can split the cost of the test.

About the name Serbian name Vučur. I know it is pronounced differently than the Rumanian name Bucur and I knew about the connection with Vuk. But I am interested if the termination “ur” is encountered in other Serbian names. In Rumanian, this termination is encountered only in the names Bucur and Mugur. You can see this by looking at the list of Rumanian first names form Wikipedia. The name Mugur comes from the word “mugur” which means “bud” in English. In the Wiktionary the word “mugur” is presented as coming from the Albanian word “mugull”.

https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/List%C4%83_de_prenume_rom%C3%A2ne%C8%99ti
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mugur

I will not post my messages in French anymore. My intention was to get the attention of the possible Frenchmen who have the I-FGC22045 haplogroup and search for it with Google. But now I don’t think that they exist. Google Translate is indeed very good at translating English to French. My big messages were written in English and then translated to French with Google Translate. I only made some minor corrections before posting them to the forum.

[Aca]

This is a two part message.

NikolaVuk [НиколаВук], I already said that I wanted to research the connection of the South Slavic branch with the Albanian branch. I tried to see if I can explain this connection by my father's Albanian matches. This is why I discussed about the name Abaza/Abazović, which is present both in the genealogy of some Serbian families that have the I-FGC22045 haplogroup and in some of my father’s autosomal matches of Albanian descent. I don’t know why you say that this research was “esoteric”, because I procedeed in the most scientific way, with references to articles from the internet and other sources. You say that the Abazović branch is young, and this may be true, but we don’t know when the I-FGC22045 haplogroup has appeared in the Drobnjak tribe. The earliest man on record with this confirmed haplogroup is Nikola Rašković Drobnjak.

I have read Nikatz's [Никац] message, but he is wrong. I am not trying to demonstrate that the ancestor of the Drobnjaci was Albanian, I am trying to find the link between the South Slavic and the Albanian branches, if they are separate branches and not the same one. Many on this thread probably see these branches as completely separate, coming from two separate Scandinavian ancestors who had the same haplogroup. This could be true, but at this time the origin from the same Scandinavian ancestor seems more probable.

Nikatz makes another wrong assumption. He misunderstands my approach. I am not trying to research the ethnic origin of the Drobnjak tribe. The Drobnjak tribe was Serbian and stayed Serbian troughout the time, regardless of the genetic ethnicity of the men that composed it. I am trying to research the origin of the I-FGC22045 in the Balkans. As anybody can see on YFull, the European haplogroups are more or less present all over Europe. For example the I1 haplogroup is encountered in all the European countries and those that have it have the ethnicity of their family, not a Germanic ethnicity.

Sometimes the genealogical research can discover things that may be unpleasant, but this is the price to pay if you want to discover the truth. I read some time ago a book named “Blood of the Isles: Exploring the Genetic Roots of Our Tribal History”. It was written by Bryan Sykes, who was one of the first scientists to apply mtDNA and Y DNA haplogroups in genealogy research. The book investigated the haplogroups from the British Isles. One chapter is dedicated to the genealogy of the MacDonald clan, one of the biggest Scottish clans (tribes). The Scots are of Irish ancestry, so they are ethnic Celts. The ancestor of the clan is considered a Celtic hero who has fought and defeated the Vikings. Bryan Sykes tested a few contemporary descendents of this ancestor and to their surprise revealed the fact that he was of Scandinavian origin on his paternal side. It was surely unpleasant for the MacDonalds to hear this, but this did not change the historical fact that their ancestor was a Scottish hero. This is valid also for the Drobnjak tribe. Even if the ancestor with the I-FGC22045 haplogroup was not an ethnic Serb on his paternal line, the tribe was Serbian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Donald
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerled
https://electricscotland.com/history/articles/ScotlandsR1a1HighlandClansmen.pdf

We all get what you’re trying to say, but all modern nations are products of centuries of assimilation. In that regard i believe that Vlach population has contributed greatly to both Serbian and Albanian gene pool and that’s how I1-P109 ended in both Balkan nations. The issue of Albanian branch being upstream from the Drobnjak one can be explained this way. Some of the Vlachs, or maybe a single person, moved westwards forming a new downstream branch and eventually Drobnjak tribe and those that remained in Western Macedonia got assimilated into Albanians.