Дробњаци - Новљани I1>P109>FGC22045>FGC22061

[НиколаВук]

Кратко бих прокоментарисао два резултата Дантеовог теста целог генома који су се појавили у последњих месец дана, а припадају овом роду.

Први је Трифуновић из Речице код Пожеге (слава Ђурђевдан). Он припада подграни FT408946, а са Орловићем из Крлигата код Зубиног Потока (слава Ђурђевдан) је на живом стаблу формирао нову подграну Y237563:

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/I-FT408946/

Други је Живковић из Радијевића код Нове Вароши (слава Цвети). Припада подграни FGC22054*, и ни са једном другом "звездицом" са тог нивоа неће формирати нову подграну. Овиме смо добили СНП ознаку и за друге породице из старовлашког краја са ретком славом Цвети које припадају роду Дробњака-Новљана:

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/I-FGC22054/

[Слобо]

Ово су већ тешке оптужбе и клевете од човека који овде често износи свакакве "хипотезе" које се косе са логиком и народски речено "здравим разумом". Ако већ у својем резоновању које личи на теорије завера сматра да научници из његове земље прећуткују неке резултате, онда такав исти начин размишљања не може приписивати нама јер то својим досадашњим радом, и то сопственим снагама и без икаквог учешћа или подршке државе Србије (напротив, често нам управо државни органи попут царине отежавају и компликују истраживања) никако нисмо заслужили. Фасцинантно ми је како ликови попут њега замишљају да смо ми некаква државна институција у којој намерно саботирамо истраживања која смо сами покренули.  Али очигледно је све могуће и све је реално када неко поседује такав умострој (mindset).

Овом приликом те опомињем због клевета које си овде написао и позивам те да се за њих моментално извиниш. Нисам имао намеру да на твоје баљезгарије одговарам директно на енглеском, имаш Гугл преводилац па преводи.

Шта уопште он или било ко други заиста очекује да ће дубински тест Николе Рашковића да открије? Можда ја не видим добро ствари, али тај тест може само да потврди Новљанску подграну ФГЦ22061 с обзиром када је и где живио. Па и да је нека узводна? Није ми јасно узбуђење око тог теста

[Drvoseča]

Кратко бих прокоментарисао два резултата Дантеовог теста целог генома који су се појавили у последњих месец дана, а припадају овом роду.

Први је Трифуновић из Речице код Пожеге (слава Ђурђевдан). Он припада подграни FT408946, а са Орловићем из Крлигата код Зубиног Потока (слава Ђурђевдан) је на живом стаблу формирао нову подграну Y237563:

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/I-FT408946/

Други је Живковић из Радијевића код Нове Вароши (слава Цвети). Припада подграни FGC22054*, и ни са једном другом "звездицом" са тог нивоа неће формирати нову подграну. Овиме смо добили СНП ознаку и за друге породице из старовлашког краја са ретком славом Цвети које припадају роду Дробњака-Новљана:

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/I-FGC22054/

Зна ли се ко је YF122014 који је остао на FGC22061* нивоу?

Иначе, нисам видео да је неко питао - како стоје ствари са пројектом профилизације Дробњака, тј да ли су послати узорци у мају као што је било предвиђено? Ако Данте буде радио истим темпом, претпостављам да би ти резултати требало да стигну крајем године.

[abmunteanu]

This is a two part message.

Ojler, let’s put you in the same situation as Željko. Let’s say that the Serbian DNA Project has unearthed in 2018 the remains of a medieval man. A simple Y-DNA test was done in 2020 and the haplogroup found was I-Z17855. Then nothing happens and you are in July 2023. It’s been 5 years since the remains have been unearthed and 3 years since the only DNA test was done. Ojler, wouldn’t you be curious to learn more about the DNA of the medieval man who has an Y-DNA haplogroup very close to yours, or maybe the same haplogroup as you? You have waited 5 years and hoped that a more detailed Y-DNA test will be done and maybe also an autosomal test, that can show you if the medieval man is your direct ancestor.

So, Ojler, what will you do in this situation? Wait patiently another 5 years? Or will you try to understand what is happening and why the testing of the remains is so much delayed by the Serbian DNA Project?

Tell Željko how he should proceed. But remember that Željko posted his first message on this thread in November 2014. He spent almost 9 years as a member of this forum.

And I’m not speaking only about Željko. Many other men who have the I-FGC22061 haplogroup are interested in the DNA test results of Nikola Rašković Drobnjak. Don’t tell me that CosicZ, RajkoK or A. Jaksić are not interested, alongside many others who have or don’t have the same Y haplogroup. The fact that the majority of those who have the I-FGC22061 haplogroup don’t post on this thread, does not mean they are not interested in learning about the DNA of a possible ancestor. They are, because otherwise they would not have paid for the Big Y test and for uploading the result to YFull. They want to know what is happening, and they are ignored, they don’t receive any update. Of course, the Serbian DNA Project is not obligated to offer updates, but it would be nice, especially to someone like Željko, who is a forum member from the beginning.

CosicZ, I thought that maybe the Wallachian voivode has the I-FGC22045 haplogroup, but I don’t think this is the case. If this was true, then the result would be available, like with the mtDNA haplogroup. The Rumanian royal family (1866-1947) was German, so the fact that the founder of Wallachia was of German origin would not be a big deal, on the contrary, this would be celebrated. It may be strange, but Rumanians love the Germanic peoples much more than the Romance/Latin peoples. Today Rumanians are in love with English, a Germanic language, much more than they were ever in love with the French language, which almost nobody speaks in Rumania anymore, although Rumania presents itself as a Francophone country.

The fact that the Y haplogroup of the Wallachian voivode has never been disclosed, means that the result is seen as uncomfortable for the Rumanian people. That means the Y haplogroup is of Asian or Slavic origin, both situations being plausible. Asian origin means Tatar or Cuman origin. The Wallachians and Moldavians have fought the Tatars for centuries. It would be ridiculous if the founder of Wallachia was a Tatar, a historical enemy of the Wallachians. It would also be ridiculous if he was a Cuman, a member of a nomadic people from the depths of Asia, taking into account that today’s Rumanians mock the Hungarians because of their nomadic Asian origin. Slavic origin would be a shame, because all the Slavs are regarded as inferior to the Rumanians, who see themselves as Latins, descending from the Romans of Italy, which is not true (see discussion below). Actually all the Rumanians have Slavic ancestors, but the Slavs are not put on the same level as the Dacians and the Romans when it comes to the formation of the Rumanian people, the Slavs being considered almost as a negligible factor in the Rumanian ethnogenesis, although in reality it is as important as the Dacians and the Roman colonists.

CosicZ, concerning the first link that you provided I must say that I don’t trust the ethnicity calculators. And the second link points to a page that has disappeared from the Poreklo site.

[abmunteanu]

НиколаВук [NikolaVuk], you misunderstood me. I did not say that the two situations are identical, but that they are similar. That means the result is the same (no update about a DNA test), but the causes are different. Let me explain. Since I have been posting on this forum I saw a problem. Although the men who have the I-FGC22045 haplogroup are from almost all the Balkan countries, to suggest that the Drobnjak tribe was anything other than pure Serbian is seen as a blasphemy. Every time that I mention something related to Albanians or Croats, I am accused of spamming by people who don’t even have the I-FGC22045 haplogroup. It is clear that many more Serbs are interested in the origin of the Drobnjaks than those who have the Y haplogroup associated with them.

The fact that there is no update from the Serbian DNA Project about the testing of Nikola Rašković Drobnjak is not seen by me as an intervention of the Serbian state. I see it as an attempt from the Serbian DNA Project not to alienate, upset, annoy the Serbs who were told that the Drobnjaks were the most pure Serbian tribe. I will make another parallel with Rumania in order top be better understood.

Rumanians are taught in elementary school that the Roman Empire fought the Dacians, conquered Dacia and transformed it into a Roman colony. Then the Romans brought a lot of colonists and the Rumanians are descended from these colonists mixed with the remaining Dacians. It is implied that the colonists arrived mostly from Italy, so the Rumanians consider themselves as being of Italian origin. In fact, this is not true. Trajan himself, the Roman emperor who fought the Dacians, prohibited bringing colonists from Italy, because at that time the Italian peninsula had a deficit of population, created by the previous colonizations in Europe (for example Trajan was a descendant of a Roman family from Spain). So, the vast majority of the Roman colonists brought (sometimes by force) in Dacia were not from Italy, but from the other European colonies and even from the colonies in Asia Minor or North Africa. Actually it is very probable that the vast majority of the Roman colonists were from Thracia, Illyria, Greece and Asia Minor (today’s Turkey), which makes sense, because they were the most close geographically to Dacia. This is not a speculation, it is written in the history books and accepted by the Rumanian historians. So, the Rumanian language is a Latin/Romance language, but the Rumanian population is not genetically Latin/Italian. However, this is not what the population believes, because this is not what was taught in school, where the Italian genetic origin is suggested (implied) as the genetic origin of the Rumanian population. If you tell a Rumanian today that his Roman ancestors were mostly Thracians, Illyrians and Greeks you will elicit an angry response, because he/she always thought that these ancestors were Italians.

This is similar to the Drobnjak situation. The majority of the Serbs believe that the Drobnjaks were genetically Serbian, this is what they were told. The Y-DNA and autosomal DNA test of Nikola Rašković Drobnjak may destroy this belief, by showing important genetic matches from other Balkan countries like Albania and Croatia, with which the Serbs do not have good relations today. In the absence of any update about the test of Nikola Rašković Drobnjak, I can believe anything, including the fact that the Serbian DNA Project does not want to anger the Serbs by disclosing some genetic data that may upset them. So, it’s not about pressure from the government, but pressure from the public opinion, especially from this forum.

NikolaVuk, I will not apologize for what I have written. You can ban this account if you don’t want me to post anymore. I won’t create another account.

Слобо [Slobo], there is a lot of important information enclosed in the DNA of Nikola Rašković Drobnjak.

Y-DNA (uploaded to YFull)
1) the precise haplogroup and SNPs (including Novel SNPs)
2) the closest SNP matches (with the most shared SNPs)
3) the closest STR matches
4) the relation with Gjoka and Siryi

Autosomal DNA (uploaded to GEDmatch, MyHeritage and FTDNA)
1) the Germanic autosomal matches, especially the ancient ones. There is a lot of ancient DNA (for example from Viking tombs) that was sequenced. Based on it we may find the place of origin of the man with the I-FGC22046/22048 haplogroup who came to the Balkans. Was he a Goth/Gepid/Herul, a Varangian, a Norman, a Saxon?
2) the Balkan autosomal matches. We may find the places of origin of his parents and grandparents.

[Ojler]

This is a two part message.

Ojler, let’s put you in the same situation as Željko. Let’s say that the Serbian DNA Project has unearthed in 2018 the remains of a medieval man. A simple Y-DNA test was done in 2020 and the haplogroup found was I-Z17855. Then nothing happens and you are in July 2023. It’s been 5 years since the remains have been unearthed and 3 years since the only DNA test was done. Ojler, wouldn’t you be curious to learn more about the DNA of the medieval man who has an Y-DNA haplogroup very close to yours, or maybe the same haplogroup as you? You have waited 5 years and hoped that a more detailed Y-DNA test will be done and maybe also an autosomal test, that can show you if the medieval man is your direct ancestor.

So, Ojler, what will you do in this situation? Wait patiently another 5 years? Or will you try to understand what is happening and why the testing of the remains is so much delayed by the Serbian DNA Project?

Tell Željko how he should proceed. But remember that Željko posted his first message on this thread in November 2014. He spent almost 9 years as a member of this forum.

And I’m not speaking only about Željko. Many other men who have the I-FGC22061 haplogroup are interested in the DNA test results of Nikola Rašković Drobnjak. Don’t tell me that CosicZ, RajkoK or A. Jaksić are not interested, alongside many others who have or don’t have the same Y haplogroup. The fact that the majority of those who have the I-FGC22061 haplogroup don’t post on this thread, does not mean they are not interested in learning about the DNA of a possible ancestor. They are, because otherwise they would not have paid for the Big Y test and for uploading the result to YFull. They want to know what is happening, and they are ignored, they don’t receive any update. Of course, the Serbian DNA Project is not obligated to offer updates, but it would be nice, especially to someone like Željko, who is a forum member from the beginning.

Пре свега, теби Порекло не дугује ништа. Ти ниси чак ни члан Друштва да би имао права да постављаш било какве захтеве. Ако ти се не свиђа шта и како Порекло ради - путуј игумане, нико те овде не задржава. Или можеш и да преузмеш организацију целокупног тестирања које прижељкујеш да се деси: контактираш Министарство здравља и обезбедиш потребне дозволе, контактираш Царину Србије и средиш све формалности око слања узорка, обезбедиш сагласност Музеја Херцеговине за слање узорка у иностранство, логистичку подршку и сагласност Лабораторије за генетику Биолошког факултета у Београду, вероватно и сагласност још два министарстава у две државе. Такође, да припремиш новац за финансирање целог подухвата. Па ако те толико занима аутосомална и било која друга генетика Николе Рашковића, изволи. За све то ти Порекло не треба, чак ни за обезбеђивање ДНК узорка кнеза. А да се теби неко овде правда и објашњава ти са каквим проблемима се такав пројекат суочава, е то се неће десити. А ти замишљај у својој глави шта хоћеш, но будеш ли још једном овде оптужио некога да жели да прикрије порекло кнеза Николе Рашковића и Дробњака уопште, то ће ти бити и последње обраћање на овом Форуму.

[Слобо]

Абмунтеану, сви данашњи Срби су једнако Срби без обзира када је нечији предак то постао. Нечији преци су то били поодавно, а нечији су то постали нешто касније. Преци многих Румуна су Срби, преци можда и половина данашњих Хрвата су некада били Срби. Преци многих Срба су били нешто друго прије него су постали Срби. То је једноставно нормалан процес стварања било ког народа. Сви знамо да су новљани били Скандинавци/Германи прије него су се утопили у Србе. Можда су у међувремену били и нешто друго,  ми то за сада не знамо. Али то овдје баш никоме не смета. Не знам зашто пробаш да прикажеш да тако нешто неко хоће да сакрије. То вријеђа многе честите људе у Пореклу којима је истина важнија од било ког генетичког резултата. Ни један генетички резултат не чини некога Србином или Румуном...
Мислим да би требао показати барем мало више пристојности према организацији која ти је омогућила , кроз своје активности, да дознаш понајвише о сопственом поријеклу, допадало ти се оно или не...

[CosicZ]

CosicZ, concerning the first link that you provided I must say that I don’t trust the ethnicity calculators. And the second link points to a page that has disappeared from the Poreklo site.

My mistake when copying the link. Try https://www.poreklo.rs/2022/09/29/video-predavanje-prof-dr-karlesa-lalueze-foksa-slovenske-migracije-i-geneticko-poreklo-balkanskih-naroda/ or https://www.youtube.com/v/VIm9zOIwHWM .

I posted these links because they point to the claims that today's Serbs (and other peoples of the Balkans) are a mixture of immigrant Slavs and the population they found in the Balkans. They were published on the Poreklo portal, so it can be said that they represent the opinion of the Serbian DNA Project. The second link refers to a lecture held at the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts, so it can be said that it also represents the opinion of the academy or at least relevant scientists. I learned the same in elementary school (long before genomic research).

There are also pseudo-scientists in Serbia who claim that Serbs have been in the Balkans since the Ice Age, that all Indo-Europeans come from Serbs, etc. Since their evidence for such claims is weak, they resort to conspiracy theories. They accuse scientists or Poreklo of hiding the truth from the people or of working for the enemies of the Serbs. If any of them made such accusations here on the forum, they would probably be banned. And the suggestions that Poreklo, for some nationalist reasons, does not want the remains of Nikola Rašković Drobnjak to be further tested is a conspiracy theory. On the topics of this forum dedicated to archaeogenetics, it can be seen that we all eagerly await new results from Serbia and neighboring countries and publish them as soon as they appear.

Based on what is known so far https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-FGC22046/ it can be said that the carriers of this haplogroup originated from Scandinavia and that some of them became Albanians, Ukrainians, Romanians or Serbs. And since the Serbs are in a subgroup that has a TMRCA of about 750 years, it seems that this subgroup entered among them at that time. If someone wanted to hide it, all these results would not have been made public.

The problem with autosomal genetics is this: suppose it is established that Nikola Rašković Drobnjak and I share certain DNA segments. There is no way to determine that those segments came through a direct paternal line to me unless all of his descendants were tested.

[НиколаВук]

Зна ли се ко је YF122014 који је остао на FGC22061* нивоу?

Не знамо још ко је у питању. За дробњачки пројекат ћете морати да контактирате Амикуса.

[НиколаВук]

Although the men who have the I-FGC22045 haplogroup are from almost all the Balkan countries, to suggest that the Drobnjak tribe was anything other than pure Serbian is seen as a blasphemy.

Ово уопште није тачно и представља клевету према Српском ДНК пројекту.

The fact that there is no update from the Serbian DNA Project about the testing of Nikola Rašković Drobnjak is not seen by me as an intervention of the Serbian state. I see it as an attempt from the Serbian DNA Project not to alienate, upset, annoy the Serbs who were told that the Drobnjaks were the most pure Serbian tribe. I will make another parallel with Rumania in order top be better understood.

Ово је такође тешка клевета. Ојлер је већ објаснио, а и ја пре њега када си ми први пут око тога поставио питање, који су разлози што његови остаци нису још увек пребачени у неку од иностраних лабораторија. Ти си додуше последњи човек коме би ми требали да се "правдамо" јер ниси уложио ни један евро нити иједан минут свог слободног времена за покретање пројекта везаног за Николу Рашковића Дробњака, а најлакше је из даљине пљувати и делити лекције, без трунке одговорности према било чему и без икаквог знања или предзнања о техничким стварима везаним за пребацивање археогенетских остатака из лабораторије у Србији у лабораторију у иностранству, притом измишљајући фантастичне приче о некаквој саботажи пројекта од стране људи који су га и покренули. Ако сматраш да су научници из твоје земље пристрасни и спремни да искривљавају и фалсификују податке, онда не можеш по аналогији исти образац понашања (под условом да је то уопште тачно или је само плод твоје уобразиље) приписивати људима који то, на основу свог досадашњег рада, ничиме нису заслужили, јер је то у најмању руку неукусно.

In the absence of any update about the test of Nikola Rašković Drobnjak, I can believe anything, including the fact that the Serbian DNA Project does not want to anger the Serbs by disclosing some genetic data that may upset them. So, it’s not about pressure from the government, but pressure from the public opinion, especially from this forum.

NikolaVuk, I will not apologize for what I have written. You can ban this account if you don’t want me to post anymore. I won’t create another account.

За почетак си могао да мало боље размислиш о томе да није могуће просто спаковати скелет у кофер, сести на авион за Лондон (на пример) и онда тај скелет правац из кофера однети у лабораторију. Осим што би то било илегално, чак и када би инострана лабораторија желела да тако незаконит узорак обради (а наравно да би тако нешто одбили), под условом да га уопште успеш да провучеш кроз аеродромску контролу, тако илегално обрађен узорак не би могао бити објављен ни у једној публикацији. Управо због тога постоје законске и бирократске процедуре које читав процес успоравају или га понекад потпуно закоче (као што је случај са остацима кнеза Николе Рашковића). Не показујеш никакву свест нити размишљање о овим стварима, али си зато одмах пожурио да бациш камен и без основа оптужиш Српски ДНК пројекат за нешто о чему реално немаш појма. Знам, тако је најлакше, али је и прилично јадно и безобразно.

Свакако ћеш сносити последице јер уместо да повучеш своје клевете, наставио си са сипањем нових. Тиме си прекршио и Правилник овог форума, па ћемо поступити у складу са тим.

[Željko]

Све је теже пратити ко је ко на Yfull па рекох да инсталирам YFull helper екстензију.
Потражио сам већину испод FGC22045 и унио шта треба, али ми фали још неколико података...

id:YF122302 [RS-05 Западнобачки округ]
id:YF122014 [RS-16 Златиборски округ]
id:YF111903 []
id:YF122091 [RS-16 Златиборски округ]
id:YF120616 [RS-00 Београд]

За YF122302 мислим да је "Јањатовић, Ђурђевдан, Сомбор/Бачка", ваљда може бити само он јер је означено "Западнобачки округ". А за остале нијесам могао пронаћи ништа, па се надам да неко овдје може да помогне.

[Црна Гуја]

Све је теже пратити ко је ко на Yfull па рекох да инсталирам YFull helper екстензију.
Потражио сам већину испод FGC22045 и унио шта треба, али ми фали још неколико података...

id:YF122302 [RS-05 Западнобачки округ]
id:YF122014 [RS-16 Златиборски округ]
id:YF111903 []
id:YF122091 [RS-16 Златиборски округ]
id:YF120616 [RS-00 Београд]

За YF122302 мислим да је "Јањатовић, Ђурђевдан, Сомбор/Бачка", ваљда може бити само он јер је означено "Западнобачки округ". А за остале нијесам могао пронаћи ништа, па се надам да неко овдје може да помогне.

YF122302 јесте Јањатовић, YF122091 је Живковић из Радијевића код Нове Вароши (Цвети), а YF122014 би требао бити Ратковић из Кучина код Пријепоља (Никољдан). За преосталу двојицу немам никакве информације.

[Željko]

YF122302 јесте Јањатовић, YF122091 је Живковић из Радијевића код Нове Вароши (Цвети), а YF122014 би требао бити Ратковић из Кучина код Пријепоља (Никољдан). За преосталу двојицу немам никакве информације.

Ратковић из Пријепоља је id:YF116031, то сам могао пронаћи.
Важи, додат ћу и Живковића из Нове Вароши YF122091.
Преостају сад само id:YF122014, id:YF120616 и id:YF111903.

[Željko]

Виђох данас нову грану I-FT193827 на FTDNA Big Y Block Tree коју су оформили наш Илић и извјесни Јурјевић.
Данас нема те гране на Yfull колко ја могу да видим, а презиме Јурјевић нијесам могао пронаћи у пројекту.

[НиколаВук]

Да потврдим за Јањатовића - пре који дан му је стигао резултат теста целог генома и он је FGC22061*. Највероватније ће остати на нивоу "звездице", односно неће формирати нижу подграну са неким од тестираних на FGC22061*.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-FGC22061/

[Željko]

Конфигурација узорака за YFull helper екстензију која даје бољи преглед.
Сви сем id:YF122014, id:YF120616 и id:YF111903 испод https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-FGC22046/.

{
"YF097510" : "Максимовић, Никољдан, Цвилин/Фоча",
"YF105895" : "Црнадак, Никољдан, Друговићи/Лакташи",
"YF101225" : "Пејовић, Ђурђевдан, Старонићи/Чајниче",
"YF119948" : "Трифуновић, Ђурђевдан, Речице/Пожега",
"YF081464" : "Орловић, Ђурђевдан, Крлигате/Зубин Поток",
"YF074011" : "Лукић, Никољдан, Загорица/Топола (Y-700)",
"YF086075" : "Тодоровић, Ђурђевдан, Грапска Доња/Добој (Y-700)",
"YF073333" : "Живковић, Ђурђевдан, Војмислиће/Зубин Поток",
"YF071193" : "Илић, Ђурђевдан, Црнче/Јагодина (Y-700)",
"YF102130" : "Munteanu, Făgăraș/Brașov (Big Y-700)",
"YF071667" : "Касалица, Никољдан, Комарница/Шавник (Y-700)",
"YF108943" : "Ђурђић, Никољдан, Комарница/Шавник (Y-700)",
"YF116031" : "Ратковић, Никољдан, Кучин/Пријепоље",
"YF122302" : "Јањатовић, Ђурђевдан, Сомбор/Бачка",
"YF113250" : "Љујић, Никољдан, Бистрица/Нова Варош",
"YF081498" : "Кајевић, Велика Жупа/Пријепоље",
"YF071675" : "Шабановић, Стубо/Бијело Поље (Y-700)",
"YF073506" : "Ђукић, сл. Н.Н., Београд (Y-700)",
"YF122091" : "Живковић, сл. Цвети, Радијевићи/Нова Варош",
"YF093599" : "Бараћ, Никољдан, Сврачково Село/Удбина (Y-700)",
"YF086864" : "Бараћ, Никољдан, Сврачково Село/Удбина (Y-700)",
"YF073235" : "Бараћ, Никољдан, Сврачково Село/Удбина (Y-700)",
"YF112442" : "Бојовић, Савиндан, Надићи/Соколац (Y-700)",
"YF109349" : "Марковић, Савиндан, Међе/Сребреница (Y-700)",
"YF094046" : "Старовић, Савиндан, Самобор/Гацко",
"YF086080" : "Кртинић, Јовањдан, Рудопоље Брувањско/Грачац (Y-700)",
"YF019599" : "Јакшић, Савиндан, Балтићи/Соколац (Y-700)",
"YF107946" : "Јанковић, Ђурђевдан, Газиводе/Соколац (Y-700)",
"YF082299" : "Коњокрад, Савиндан, Рогатица (Y-700)",
"YF093948" : "Божић, Савиндан, Каљина/Соколац (Y-700)",
"YF086079" : "Ћоровић, Савиндан, Шавник",
"YF072448" : "Грбовић, Савиндан, Поникве/Чајниче (Y-700)",
"YF105756" : "Siryi, Petropavlivka/Dnipropetrovsk Oblast (Y-700)",
"YF104386" : "Gjoka, Pogradec/Korçë",
"YF010703" : "Bergqvist, Kumla/Sala/Västmanland (Y-500)"
}

[abmunteanu]

#################
I have posted a two part message that was deleted and I was banned for 7 days. The deleted message had nothing insulting in it and who wants to read it can contact me by e-mail. At the end of the deleted message I said that I will not post again until the test results for Nikola Rašković Drobnjak (NRD) are available. I was determined to do as I said, but then I received some information that may be of interest for those who have the I-FGC22045 haplogroup.
#################

The enigma of Siryi is half solved. He solved it himself after reading some of my forum messages (the fragment after “your part” is from a message I posted on page 77). This is what he wrote me a few days ago:

--------------
I got my surname Siryi from my father, which he got from his mother - my grandmother, but not from my grandfather, as it should have been.
My grandfather's surname was Chumak and it was supposed to be inherited by my father and then by me, but…
Due to difficulties in family relations, my grandmother was angry with my grandfather because of his popularity among girls.
This was the reason for the refusal of official marriage and, as a result, the grandmother remained on the surname of her ancestors Siryi.

"Chumak" is a surname that historically indicated a specific profession in our culture and, echoing the story you mentioned earlier (poreklo) about the Vlachs and the surname Kramar.
Your part:  “ "kramar" was the name given to the leader of a Vlach caravan.   …Kramer meant "travelling merchant".
The Vlachs are known for the fact that they transported salt to the Balkans with their caravans, salt extracted from mines, for example the Transylvanian mines.
The Saxons who exploited the salt mines thus came into contact with the Vlachs, to whom they sold salt. It is normal that some Saxon miners became Vlachs over time, abandoning the mines for the traveling work in the open air.”

My part: Chumaks (carriers, wine and salt merchants) are a category of population that lived in the territory of present-day Ukraine and Southern Russia in the 15th and 18th centuries and were engaged in trade and transportation.
Chumak (Ukrainian: чумак) was a historical and traditional wagon-based trading occupation in the territory of modern Ukraine in the late Medieval and early Modern periods of history. It involved the delivery of goods (salt, fish, grain, and others) for the purpose of long-distance sales using carts (wagons) harnessed to oxen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chumak
Chumak trade originates from the caravan trade of the times of Kyivan Rus.
the Chumak trade was most common among the Cossacks and peasants of various categories; There were many Chumak routes in Ukraine that connected the Left Bank and Slobozhanshchyna with Zaporizhzhia and the Crimea, the Don and the Sea of Azov; others led from the Right Bank and the Left Bank to Galicia and MOLDOVA. The main roads had the following names: Black, Tsargorod, Bakaiv, Murav, Kharkiv.
https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A7%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%86%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%BE
--------------

He also gave me 6 GEDmatch kit numbers, 3 from himself (Ancestry, FTDNA, MyHeritage), 1 from his mother, 1 from a sister of his maternal grandmother and 1 from a female paternal cousin.

[abmunteanu]

This is what I wrote him in response:

=========
You have a 6.5 cM segment in common with my father on chr. 13. This may be from the common ancestor with the I-FGC22045 haplogroup or may be from some other more recent common ancestor. The segment is from your paternal side, because my father has no DNA in common with your mother. My father also has 2 segments in common with your paternal cousin, including one that is almost identical as the common segment shared with you. If these shared segments would also be found in the DNA of other men with the I-FGC22061 haplogroup, this will be the proof that they come from the ancestor with the I-FGC22045 haplogroup.

I don’t have the GEDmatch kit numbers of any other man with the I-FGC22061 haplogroup, except for R. Konjokrad. He doesn’t have any shared DNA with you, but has a 7.6 cM DNA segment on chr. 15 shared with your paternal cousin. So, again, the genetic relationship is on your paternal side.

The information that you offered about your surname is very important and can explain how your Y haplogroup is linked to the Balkans. The Chumaks did exactly the same thing as the Vlachs, they were caravaneers. They had different routes, but probably encountered each other in the northern Carpathian mountains, in Galicia.

I will make a parallel to be better understood. I have written about the Y haplogroup of my maternal grandfather in two messages posted on the Poreklo forum in the thread about Vlachs. See the links to the pages below.

https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=1360.msg189525#msg189525
https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=1360.msg189580#msg189580

In short, the grandfather of my maternal grandfather was said to have arrived from Galicia (where he was born in 1857) to Transylvania (where he was married in 1881). Both Galicia and Transylvania were provinces of Austria-Hungary in the 1800s. Nothing else was known about his ethnic origin. It was a story that was confirmed by the autosomal DNA testing of me and my sister. The closest genetic match with ancestors from Galicia is an American named Senick whose ancestors were Rusyns (Ruthenians) from a village close to Sanok, a town in south-eastern Poland, close to the border with Ukraine. We presume that my great-great grandfather was probably born in the same region and he was from a Rusyn population that today is named Lemko Rusyns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemkos

I have tested a 1st cousin of my mother (N. Sivul) who is the great-grandson of the Rusyn ancestor and has the same Y haplogroup as him. I was expecting a Slavic haplogroup, but to my surprise, he has the E-V13 haplogroup, which is a haplogroup encountered all over Europe, but is definitely of Balkan origin. The Big Y test has found the E-A19247 haplogroup (FTDNA). On Yfull the haplogroup is E-Y196900, a branch of E-A19247.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A19247/

On YFull, there are three Hungarians with closely related haplogroups and I spoke with one of them, who said that his paternal ancestor was from Barbovo, just south of Mukachevo. He was probably Rusyn, because he was a Greek-Catholic priest there. Another Hungarian has a paternal Rusyn ancestor from Dorobratovo, very close to Barbovo.

I am a distant autosomal match (just like my relative, N. Sivul) with the Hungarian I spoke to. However, according to the number of shared SNPs, N. Sivul is more closely related on the Y haplogroup to an Albanian than to the Hungarians. This proves the Balkan connection.

It is known that Vlachs have traveled all along the Carpathian mountains and have participated in the formation of the Rusyn people. The Y haplogroup of my great-great grandfather may be a proof for this.

Now back to your story. What’s also interesting about the name Chumak is that it is finished in AK, which is a termination specific for Rusyn names. The original name for a Rusyn is Rusnak, also terminated in AK. Galicia was a region with big salt deposits and some say that its name is derived from the Greek word for salt. From the Wikipedia article below: “Halych [Galicia] was rich in salt, which was mined in the region. During the early medieval period, salt was Halych's main export. Today, however, there is no more salt mining in Halych.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Galicia
http://eehb.dspu.edu.ua/article/view/218190

More importantly, Galicia was a region where the Vlachs met the Chumaks, both being caravaneers involved in the salt trade. One of the Vlachs became a Chumak and probably this is how your Y haplogroup has appeared.

The fact that you have Galician ancestors on your paternal side is possibly proven by the fact that according to GEDmatch N. Sivul has 52.2 cM shared DNA with your paternal cousin. I myself have 26.6 cM in common with her on my Ancestry kit, but 73.4 cM (!) on my 23andMe kit. I don’t know how accurate these values are [they take into account all shared segments bigger than 5 cM], but I think that you very probably have paternal ancestors from Galicia.
=========

The conclusion is that Siryi’s haplogroup is probably the result of the fact that two caravaneer populations, the Vlachs and the Chumaks, met in Galicia and there was an exchange of people between them.

The Galicia link is further demonstrated by the fact that I have a common match with Siryi on GEDmatch, a woman from Poland who shares 20 cM with me and 10 cM with Siryi. She has all her ancestors from Rzeszów and the adjacent villages, who were in the past located in the province of Galicia. Rzeszów is now a Polish town close to Sanok and the border with Ukraine. The Vlachs are mentioned in medieval Rzeszów in a particular context (see below), which again proves the presence of the Vlachs in Galicia.

---------
In 1458 Rzeszów was burned by the Vlachs and the Tatars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rzesz%C3%B3w#History
--------

[Drvoseča]

Abmunteanu, please understand that what I'm about to write is coming from a friendly position.

When one goes through your recent post history here on this topic, it becomes obvious that you have cycled through an extremely large number of theories, and that you have posted those theories with mostly bulletproof conviction. I think that the reason for that is that you base those theories on extremely anecdotal evidence and bu making some very loose connections. There is nothing wrong with building theories and guessing as far this topic goes, there is too many unknowns here still, but your methodology is completely misguided. You convince yourself that something is true, and then you cherrypick the stuff that fits into that and post it as evidence. You have to understand that you have recently tried to prove whatever you are trying to prove by ignoring a fairly well documented geographical and ethnic history of the Drobnjak  tribe that is the carrier of the haplogroup that you and I belong to, and when people here got upset by that, you instantly started to make baseless and, frankly, silly accusations against them and Poreklo in general. To borrow something that I have heard from Romanians, your methodology is - daca prinde, prinde, daca nu prinde - arde (sorry if I misspelled something).

I fully understand that, like many of us, you are trying to find out your origins. I am here because in my neck of the woods this is something that is extremely important, and my family history is foggy because of whatever blood feud they were in, and it is a very small branch, so not a large family, my great-great grandfather died when my great grandfather was young, and he had bits and pieces of the true story, and then his story was carried in bits and pieces by his descendants, and today each member of the family has his own theory that, honestly, comes from the same methodology as yours - whatever they like the most, they take it to be the truth. I did all the testing because of that, and because I owe it to some family members that are deceased to find the truth - it is something that means a lot to me. I have numerous theories about everything this topic deals with, but I don't take any as hard truth because I, like you, simply cannot know yet.

The chances are that you will disregard all of this, you seem pretty hard-headed, but the friendliest advice that I can give you is - hit the brakes a little bit, don't take every idea that you have as gospel,  be patient and enjoy the ride, because there will be new evidence coming in, who knows what it will bring. Many times I've made mistakes in life by fixating on anecdotal because it suited my wishes, and many times I have been stung severely because of that, so I'm talking from experience.

[abmunteanu]

Drvoseča, you must be more precise in your critique. What is the “fairly well documented geographical and ethnic history of the Drobnjak tribe”? Is there a book available for download that can be read with Google Translate, other than the book written by A. Jakšić? I am willing to read it. If people were annoyed by what I wrote, why they have not posted documents or links to articles and books that contradict my opinions?

From the beginning of this thread (October 2013), various users have posted theories about the origin of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup. Jovica Krtinić [Јовица Кртинић] has posted on page 1 a link to a text about Palman Bracht the Alleman and then a quote about Robert Guiscard the Norman. Two unrelated hypotheses on the first page! Also on the first page there is a discussion about the origin of the families Vemić and Barać, which are not clear. This is what Nebojša [Небојша] said on pages 1 and 2 of the thread: <<{automatic translation} The problem is that not all ethnologists and historians agree when it comes to Novljani. Some authors believe that everything related to the lore of this tribe is just a legend, and the name "Novljani" itself is debatable. I have come across various theories about the origin of this name, and the most logical one seems to be that this name was "carried" by the old inhabitants of Herceg Novi.[...] We see that Novljani are precisely I1, so it is quite realistic that they are originally from the Herceg Novi area, as some authors claim. [...]I tried to connect these I1, whose origin may be on the [Adriatic] coast (and they fall into the Novljani-tribe) with the Novljani-inhabitants of Herceg Novi. I know when Drobnjak was [first] mentioned, but I still do not believe in the mythical migration of "Novljans" from Bosnia to Drobnjak in the 7th or 8th century.>>

My first post was in July 2021, on page 58 of the thread. There was already plenty of speculation before I began posting, including about the Novljani origin from the Adriatic coast. A doubt was expressed in 2013 about the truthfulness of the accredited historical narrative concerning the Drobnjaci-Novljani tribe, without anyone protesting. I myself don’t see the problem with the points of view that are contrary to the widely accepted (but not demonstrated) opinion about the origin of the Drobnjaks. If the admins of the forum want me to not post anymore, because I annoy the other users, they can ban me forever. I will not create another account.

Drvoseča, you really misunderstood me. I don’t have a theory about the origin of the I-FGC22045 haplogroup and its branches, I have exposed multiple hypotheses. One of them is true, the others are not. Which one is true, I don’t know at this time. And I don’t have a favorite theory/hypothesis. My hypotheses about the I-FGC22045 haplogroup that are not true, may actually be true about other I1 haplogroups from the Balkans. This is how research is done. A number of hypotheses or theories are stated and then they are verified. The only verification of my hypotheses is through the Y and autosomal DNA testing of NRD.

About hitting the brakes, I was decided not to post anymore until the testing of NRD is done. But then the message from Siryi arrived. Should I have kept it for myself? And speaking of it, my Saxon hypothesis has helped Siryi to make a connection between the salt trade done by the Vlachs and the salt trade done by the Chumaks, which is probably how he got his Y haplogroup. So, this hypothesis was not useless.

P.S. I never heard or read the expression: “dacă prinde, prinde, dacă nu prinde, arde”. The verb “a prinde” has usually the meaning of “to catch”, but it is also used in the sense of “to fasten”, to link two pieces together. Probable translation: “if it sticks, it sticks, if it doesn’t stick, it burns". I have no idea what this means. I searched it with Google and there are no results.